CEL, P0011 + P0021, strange noise?

[WileyKyle]

Last night my check engine light came on and the cruise light started to flash. The car ran and sounded just fine.

Thinking it was no big deal I got in this morning and made the 15 mile drive to school and about 13 miles in I felt a momentary loss of power - like I was out of gas. It came back a couple more times and I heard a strange hum. Finally, going up a big hill at 70mph, it lost most of its power, like the turbo cut out, and started to make the sound consistantly - a quite hum that would only happen when you press the gas passed a certian point. I coasted to a stop on the shoulder and took a look at the engine, which looked fine, then cautiously finished my drive to school, 2 more miles. I seemed to have power again, but I costed most of the way.

 

After class I pulled the codes, P0011 and P0021 - "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced. Reading for several hours now, it appears that hundreds of people have had similar problmes, all related to the oil system. It doesn't seem like it'd be a good idea to try and drive anywhere. Interestingly, I can start the car now and rev it and it sounds and idles fine. How do I start to diagnose this? I wish I didn't buy this car.

[ehsnils]

In your case - DO NOT DRIVE. (Flashing CEL means that you can suffer expensive/fatal engine damage)

 

 

• Remove banjo bolt, clear or remove filter.
  
• Clear filters for camshaft timing on both sides (also banjo bolts)
  
• Check camshaft timing - you may need a new timing belt ASAP!
  

Keep attention to any dirt you remove from said filters. If it contains particles it's bad.

 

The camshaft timing is fed by the same line as the turbo, and they have a filter there too. Any problems with the cam timing indicates that it's likely to be dirt in the oil feed for the timing.

 

It can also be a problem with too low oil pressure, so you should measure the oil pressure with a gauge.

 

If you are lucky your engine has survived, if not then you may need repairs since it's possible that you have a failed bearing or bad oil pump.

 

But I hope that you run the correct oil (at least 5W30 or better) on the engine (with correct level).

 

Alternative viscosities for oil can be 0W30, 5W40, 10W40, 0W40. The important thing is that the oil isn't getting too thin when it's warm. Too thick when it's cold is less of a problem.

 

If it's the timing belt you should replace it and probably also check out/replace idler pulleys/tensioner too since the timing belt doesn't jump for no reason. The "bird" sound seems to indicate this but don't rule out anything including a shot turbo. And a flashing CEL is NOT GOOD.

 

If the problems persists after cleaning filters, checking (or replacing) timing belt then you can start thinking of valve problems for the camshaft timing. But if it's a problem with a solenoid or valve it's no longer a problem that can cause expensive/fatal damage to your engine.

 

As for a new car - the first thing to do is to do an oil change with filter. You never know how old/bad the oil is - even from a dealer. And that way you can keep track on the consumption so if it's bad you know that right away and can complain. One oil change too much is cheap compared to other things you may experience.

[MadMontie1]

you're kidding right? this issue is discussed ad nausea throughout this forum. you've got code 0011 and 0021, you've heard strange noises under the hood and have experienced loss of power and have driven, from what i can tell, at least 30-50 miles with the issue?!!?

 

hate to tell you but you're turbo is probably toast. i had the same thing happen, knew exactly what the issue was and drive 2 miles home and my turbo was STILL toast.

 

seeing as though you just bought the car, the same thing has probably happened to you that happened to me. prior owner blew the turbo (notorious issue above 70k miles), got pissed, replaced it, and then traded in/sold the car. however, the place that replaced the turbo just went ahead and replaced the turbo and did not diag/correct the underlying issue - clogging oil lines, therefore the new turbo has died shortly afterward. same thing happened to me, i bought an 05 GT with 70k miles that recently had the turbo replaced and within 6 months of very light driving, the turbo blew again.

 

good luck

[porterdog]

Start saving for a new engine, and install an oil pressure gauge immediately. You have a classic oil supply issue, and it has nothing to do with the line to the turbocharger or probably the screens.

 

Your current turbo is done- this is the *classic* failure mode of these things. Seriously expect the engine to spin a rod bearing in the next month or so.

 

Sorry.

[GTTuner]

Oil pressure test! I suspect you may have fallen to the cracked pickup tube syndrome.

 

There has been some talk about the #3 main bearing spinning slightly and partially blocking off the oil feed hole to the heads.

[WileyKyle]

Update #1

 

Thank you for all of the info. I cleaned up my original post to clarify 3 things - I drove the car about 30 miles with the CEL on constant (not flashing) and another 2 miles after it started making a noise. The noise was a low hum that would come and go with accelerator position. The noise is not present when the car is at idle or revved in park.

 

ehsnils, thank you for the list. Is there any easy way to check the camshaft timing?

 

After taking some time to think about this, I have to concluded that the previous owner knew about the problem; she was exceedingly nice, wanting the car to "go to a good home," and hinted at me purchasing an extended warranty. She said that she had all maintenance records, which she promised at the time of sale to send to me.

 

She sent only 8 recent receipts for regular oil changes and 60k service/inspection. They indicate that in May the oil was changed and replaced with 'gtx 10/30', then synthetic blend 5w/30 in September, with which I'm on 3100 miles. Is 10w/30 ok?

 

MadMontie, you said that your previous owner had problems and replaced the turbo. How did you find this out?

 

Without any other receipts, will an extended warranty cover future problems? Because it looks like I should expect them. If the seller knew about these catastrophic problems with her vehicle and failed to disclose them, then that is fraud. Do I have any recourse against the seller?

 

How and where do I install an oil pressure gauge, and what do I look for?

 

Obviously, I need to differentiate between a cracked oil pickup tube/clogged banjo filters/or failed AVCS solenoid. I can check the turbo banjo on the passenger side I believe, and probably the other 2 with some dedication, but I am an engineering student, not a mechanic. That said, is this problem so involved that I should just tow the car to a mechanic(or a junkyard?)? Will just the turbo banjo screen tell me anything?

 

Lastly, the tailpipes may have been somewhat sooty - I cleaned them out when I washed the car.

　

[WileyKyle]

UPDATE #2

 

Removed, inspected and reinstalled the turbo banjo bolt, then went for a test drive in the parking lot.

 

Found metal shards in the filter as pictured, both sides, although more on the inner (cylinder head) side, except for the one big one on the turbo side.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=782&pictureid=4182http://legacygt.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=782&pictureid=4183

http://legacygt.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=782&pictureid=4184http://legacygt.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=782&pictureid=4185

 

Note: at first I removed the (obvious) upper banjo bolt and was surprised to find that there was no filter in it. I put it back, because this is the wrong bolt.

 

Two other points of interest: The exhaust side of the turbo is rusty, while the intake side is nice and shiny. Am I correct to assume that this is an indicator that the intake side has been replaced? Its seems inordinately clean. Also, note that a bolt is missing from the downpipe, this is how I found it.

 

The test drive was likewise disconcerting: the car continues to make a whirring, most notably at higher rpms when in gear.

 

Conclusion: No sludge in turbo banjo bolt filter, turbo appears to have been replaced; source of failure remians - cracked oil pickup tube or clog elsewhere? Oil pressure test next, need more info on how to do that.

[porterdog]

UPDATE #2

Conclusion: No sludge in turbo banjo bolt filter, turbo appears to have been replaced; source of failure remians - cracked oil pickup tube or clog elsewhere? Oil pressure test next, need more info on how to do that.

 

 

In your case I'd check the oil pickup. Your call if you want to DIY or pay someone; neither is fun, one is significantly cheaper.

 

I think what we're seeing with these failures is a collection of shitty parts interacting, typically compounded by less than ideal maintenance. The turbo is shite; Bryan of BNR detailed why, but basically they're neither well designed, well made, nor robust. The oil pickups can fail. The oil pumps themselves are suspect- porting them seems to be a popular thing to do with the hi-po set, but it may be a good thing to look at. I wouldn't do it unless the oil pressure gauge shows a problem. The explanation I like best at this point in time is that a restriction in the oil pump inlet can cause the pump to cavitate at high rpm.

 

With respect to getting an oil pressure gauge in there, here's a primer from NASIOC:

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1193843

 

Think this through logically- the ONLY thing that could cause camshaft misadvance for both banks at the same time is an oil supply issue. The fact that your turbocharger is now making noise is another indicator of the same thing.

 

The fact that these problems aren't uncommon sucks. It's unbelievable that a company that's been making turbo cars for as long as Subaru has is still phucking them up. Unforgivable.

[MadMontie1]

I actually bought my car BECAUSE the turbo had been recently replaced, I was trying to get ahead of this issue, but alas.

 

The reason I knew about the prior work on the vehicle was because I am good friends with people at the dealership where I purchased the car and they gave me a complete copy of all their service records, which included a turbo replacement 4 months prior to my purchase. It was replaced at like 68k miles, which I figured the prior owner had to pony up for as it would have been out of warranty. Therefore, I assume they paid to have the turbo replaced, but none of the associated oil line or filters...leading to my turbo failure within a year.