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AP for 5EAT Questions

Pataker

By Pataker
in Tuning

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Pataker Apprentice

Pataker

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I have read about the Cobb AP that you shouldnt use the stage 1 ,ap with anything other than the stock Intake and airfilter.... I have two questions, anyone running it with an an aftermarket Intake/Filter, what kind of problems did you have?... and second why.... I am not looking to go to stage 2(or at least not for a while)and since the car has an SPT intake with Heat Shield that I havent had any problems with(i know most people dont like it)... i really dont want to go back to stock intake(lack of cash and lack of the original)... Any input would be helpful.. and sorry if this is a noob kind of question....
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fishbone Grand Master

fishbone

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Stock intake has been shown to flow plenty for some significant gains in power. You can go back with peace of mind knowing you did not give up anything significant.

The tunes ask for a stock intake because with an aftermarket one you can run dangerously lean and compromise the safety of the tune and put your motor at risk. Your choice at this point is either going with the stock intake or paying for an e-tune to account for your intake. Either way, DON'T run the tunes as they are now with your intake.

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TravisCOBB Apprentice

TravisCOBB

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We have seen that the SPT intake can work reasonably well with our maps for stage1. However, you just need to do some datalogs and keep an eye on your tune from time to time, especially when there are drastic weather changes (extreme hot/cold etc). Otherwise, just run your car and be happy!

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

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captainhook Mentor

captainhook

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That doesn't sound like a particularly informed response Travis. Here is the word for word email response I received from Cobb tuning last fall after asking about using the SPT intake with their OTS maps:

 

"I just spoke with our lead calibrator concerning the SPT intake for the 2008 Legacy GT. We have done testing in the past on the SPT intakes with a 2005 STi and 2005 LGT to determine that the 2005 STi intake worked well, while the 2005 LGT had fundamental design flaws that created air flow turbulence across the Mass Air Flow sensor, which leads to erratic Air to Fuel Ratios. The 2008 Legacy GT SPT system suffers the same flaws. Due to this, I can not recommend using this intake system on your vehicle, whether you have the AccessPORT or not."

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m sprank Grand Master

m sprank

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Inlet tube is smaller than stock. Causes MAF to be mis-calibrated. mis-calibration causes a rich condition (safer than lean in Subarus eyes). At minimum MAF requires rescaling for proper operation. Notes above about the location of MAF and air turbulence are also true. Difficult intake to dial in sometimes. Do not run an OTS map and expect to get any power gain from the intake or your car to run properly. I don't even like the SPT on a stock car without recalibrating the MAF.
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  • 2 weeks later...
TravisCOBB Apprentice

TravisCOBB

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That doesn't sound like a particularly informed response Travis. Here is the word for word email response I received from Cobb tuning last fall after asking about using the SPT intake with their OTS maps:

 

"I just spoke with our lead calibrator concerning the SPT intake for the 2008 Legacy GT. We have done testing in the past on the SPT intakes with a 2005 STi and 2005 LGT to determine that the 2005 STi intake worked well, while the 2005 LGT had fundamental design flaws that created air flow turbulence across the Mass Air Flow sensor, which leads to erratic Air to Fuel Ratios. The 2008 Legacy GT SPT system suffers the same flaws. Due to this, I can not recommend using this intake system on your vehicle, whether you have the AccessPORT or not."

 

You will note that I used phrases like "CAN work" and "reasonably well" as I cannot certify that a given map will work with an intake that it was not designed for. Then again, we have seen several cars run maps with these intakes and users have reported good results. If you are going to run a mismatched map/intake setup, you will have to log and see what is going on with your car. Of course, we cannot recommend running a given setup that does not match our tested calibrations.

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dazzen Collaborator

dazzen

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Honestly, all I hear is, "buy our product and pray for the best!"

 

. . . Note that Cobb no longer even recommends using their SF intake system with their OTS maps, let alone the SPT that doesn't work properly with any tune.

Not exactly true, The SF intake is still compatible with OTS maps on 05 and 06 LGT's . I spoke with Cobb about this 3 months ago and they said that the 07 lgts had compatibility issues. Also if you look under detailed map notes on Cobbs website it still states that the SF intake is compatible....at least under 06 map notes.

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dazzen Collaborator

dazzen

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Additional Notes:

For use with a stock or very mildly modified Legacy 2.5 GT Automatic or Outback XT

Automatic only. Additional modifications such an underdrive pulley or panel filter

are still within the acceptable parameters of this calibration. When upgrading to a

full turbo-back exhaust you will need to use the Stage2 calibration. MUST USE FACTORY

INTAKE SYSTEM ONLY OR COBB TUNING SF INTAKE, NO OTHER AFTERMARKET INTAKES ARE

CERTIFIED COMPATIBLE WITH THIS CALIBRATION. Best if used with 93 or 94 octane. If any

Copyright © 2009 Cobb Tuning Products, LLC All Rights Reserved.

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captainhook Mentor

captainhook

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You clearly missed the note a few months ago when one of the Cobb guys posted on here that it was a mistake to have noted on the Cobb website that the SF intake works properly with the OTS maps. Within days of that post the definition of the intake system changed on the website and no longer stated, "safe to use with our OTS maps." Looks like the rest of the website was never updated. As pretty much anyone on this site will tell you (I can say from experience) . . . the OTS maps are a bad call, especially if you're running anything besides a TB exhaust for a stage 2 setup. At least get a reputable etune for the car.
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dazzen Collaborator

dazzen

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The thread a few months ago was not in regard to 05 & 06's. I read the same thread and then called Christian at Cobb and asked for a more detailed explanation. He then told me that the issues were only with 07 and up LGT. It then makes sense that since this SF intake is sold for 05-09 lgt models cobb revised the general description of this product but still listed the intake as compatible under certain map notes.Logging is important no matter what set-up you are running. Bottom line...Cobb has good customer service and if anyone has any questions then they should simply call Cobb like i did and get a straight answer.
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fishbone Grand Master

fishbone

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Logging is important no matter what set-up you are running.

The end. An intake would be the least of your worries if your car knocks to hell and back throughout the rpm range. Would anyone here feel better if they cracked a piston on the stock intake vs an aftermarket? I don't think it would influence the repair costs either :lol:

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captainhook Mentor

captainhook

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The thread a few months ago was not in regard to 05 & 06's. I read the same thread and then called Christian at Cobb and asked for a more detailed explanation. He then told me that the issues were only with 07 and up LGT. It then makes sense that since this SF intake is sold for 05-09 lgt models cobb revised the general description of this product but still listed the intake as compatible under certain map notes.Logging is important no matter what set-up you are running. Bottom line...Cobb has good customer service and if anyone has any questions then they should simply call Cobb like i did and get a straight answer.

 

My experience with Cobb has been COMPLETELY the opposite, for well over a month it was like pulling teeth trying to get straight answers from them. Not to mention they refused for years to admit that the staged OTS maps made for the 05 were worthless and caused overboost scenarios for the 07-09 GT's.

 

As for the SF intake, you're a fool to believe what you hear from Cobb, period. Here's a recent direct quote from the most highly regarded and respected tuner on the forum:

The Cobb OTS maps run stock MAF scalings. The last Cobb intake I road tuned came to me with fueling off a good 5-7% lean across the board. Mind you this is closer then most intakes, however still a good amount off. Good thinking, do not install the intake until it can be properly tuned for.

 

. . . I rest my case.

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  • 4 months later...
lamegti Apprentice

lamegti

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guess this came a bit late. i just got an spt intake and ap. definitely going to get a tune as i'm facing idling issues. its only been a week. when i called cobb, they mentioned that they make no guarantees about using the spt with the stock maps that come with the ap. the only thing that i could take from that call was try it for a while and see whether the ecu adapts.
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TravisCOBB Apprentice

TravisCOBB

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We do not recommend running an aftermarket intake with a tune that is calibrated for the stock intake. There can be significant driveability issues associated with running an intake untuned. Honestly, a stock intake will do just as well, or even a panel filter. There really wont be too much of a difference in power.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

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lamegti Apprentice

lamegti

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We do not recommend running an aftermarket intake with a tune that is calibrated for the stock intake. There can be significant driveability issues associated with running an intake untuned. Honestly, a stock intake will do just as well, or even a panel filter. There really wont be too much of a difference in power.

 

Travis

COBB Tuning

 

I agree that there wasn't a significant gain running the intake without the AP. However, I do enjoy the "audible performance feedback", as quoted in cobbs website. Makes me wonder if the cobb has a stage 1 map to use with the COBB SF intake. ps: I say this with no intention of flaming, or getting flamed by anyone.

 

On another note, I decided to do an open source tuning today. Not sure about the numbers that others are getting with the same minimal mods...but I'm happy with the results. In addition, the idling issues that I had have been addressed. Below are the outcomes.

 

Comments

Baseline Cobb accessport with intake

max torque: 211 ft-lb

max power: 187hp

 

unmarried cobb accessport and retuning on open source with intake

max torque: 232 ft-lb

max power: 214hp

 

The numbers may be biased, since the tune from the AP was not meant to be used with an intake. Dyno was done on a mustang 4wd...and the temp gauge in my car showed the outside temperature to be 102 degrees F.

 

This is my first time on the dyno. Happy to provide additional info if I missed anything. Cheers.

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