Looking at Sway Bars

[Tommyh]

I'm looking to upgrade the sway bars (front and rear) and want to know who makes what and the advantages, disadvantages and how much for all of the options that we have. (Whiteline, Perrin, JDM, etc.)

 

I know that there is a multitude of companies out there and I'm not sure where to start. I'm comming from building a Saturn where I have very few real choices for a source of reliable, track proven parts.

[illt3ck]

I've been mulling over the performance associated with stock sways + f & r endlinks.

 

Does anyone have any info on this?

[Xenonk]

Many discussions were talked about, here are the links, I'll let them speak for themselves:

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9096&highlight=sway+bars

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9600&highlight=sway+bars

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8624&highlight=sway+bars

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7850&highlight=sway+bars

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3611&highlight=sway+bars

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5941&highlight=sway+bars

 

Keefe

[Tommyh]

Thanks, I had done a search on this ealier and came up with bupkiss that was pertinant to what I was looking for. I guess I don't know the right words to run a seach for...

[Xenonk]

If you need to know something specific or a particular set up you want to achieve with the car, just PM me or post here in the thread. I'll do my best to answer them.

 

Keefe

[Tommyh]

Thanks

[Rockets GT]

If you need to know something specific or a particular set up you want to achieve with the car, just PM me or post here in the thread. I'll do my best to answer them.

 

Keefe

 

Keefe,

 

I read all 6 links from start to finish that you posted above and would like your opinion for my set up. I am looking for something to tighten up the body roll that occurs while I am driving through the twists and turns of the Rocky Mountains. I don't do any racing of any sort but do enjoy pushing the car through the mountains. From what have gathered from the readings, the JDM 20mm rear strut and some new rubber should help me out greatly, what are your thoughts?? Thank you in advance for your help!!

 

Rick

[Xenonk]

What's the speed limit out on the Rocky Mountain passes you do? What tires are you running? And lastly, do you plan on running stock or aftermarket suspension (either springs/shocks or full coilovers)? Are you looking a better turn-in handling or are you looking for more stability overall?

 

I think those are the general questions I usually ask people before suggesting anything. I usually try to get a feel because everyone drives differently and everyone wants something differently out of the car (even though we all want better overall performance). I guess it's the matter of "how to approach the driver's needs" rather than "getting everything and making the driver adjust to the 'new' car all over again."

 

 

Keefe

[Rockets GT]

Keefe,

 

Speeds are usually 60 - 90 mph. I currently have the stock RE92's but am looking for some new all season tires, any suggestions? I am leaning towards the Falken Ziex ZE-512 that subydude offers. I would like to get some aftermarker springs, but I am on the fence with this issue because I don't and won't have to $$ for upgraded struts and I don't want to ruin or damage the stock ones by putting aftermarket springs on them. Whats your opinion on aftermarket springs with stock struts?? Finally, I am looking for more overall control and stability in the car. Thanks again!!

 

Rick

[gtguy]

If you want more overall stability and control of the car, start small. Tires are the first place you should start. After that, the JDM swaybar is an effective option, though there are some other bars out there. Personally, I wouldn't go any larger than the size of the front bar at the rear, but others will likely view things differently.

 

The other thing I would do is look at the front lower brace from Cusco. This adds a bit of understeer which balances quite nicely with the addition of the rear sway bar. The car is just on the understeering side of neutral, which is what you want.

 

I don't believe that springs are the answer, and yes, I have tried them on the Legacy GT (wagon). The stock struts don't like the lowering that accompanies any springset. Had the STi pink springs lived up to their billing, and lowered the car 1/2-3/4" as specified, they might be a viable option. Instead, it's more like an inch or so, which is too much. Ride and handling quality are compromised. The handling feels better, and it is in some parameters. In others it is worse (bump steer, bump compliance, for example).

 

People have had good luck with the JDM GT (vs. GT Bilstein) strut/spring combination, as being an upgrade, but not a harsh one, from the USDM strut/spring combo, which actually works very well with the abovementioned upgrades.

 

I wouldn't do stock sways with upgraded endlinks, because the rear bar, at 16mm, gives up the ghost too soon, which can result in unpredictable handling as the car approaches the limits.

 

Hope that helps,

 

Kevin

[Xenonk]

Usually a tire upgrade with a good alignment will go a long way. A JDM 20mm sway bar maybe the perfect ticket for you as well as the front under brace that GTGUY is recommending.

 

If you are on the fence about shock blowouts and the such, you might want to stay away from the shocks/springs all together and save that mod up for another day instead.

 

With 60-90 mph, you would need stability and I havent been on a super curvy road that allows that kind of speed unless you are an INSANE driver to hit those speeds on roads similar to http://www.tailofthedragon.com

 

Start small as Kevin stated (as we both have a pretty much mutual understanding about what to go for when modding). The stock GT with better tires goes a long way in handling performance actually.

 

Since you are looking for an all-season tire, definitely dont expect to carve the corners on the public road at 60-90 mph as a dedicated maximum tire or a street legal race tire would give a safer grip capacity. The Falken ZE-512s are decent for the daily commute and speed limit driving, I wouldnt think of pushing them even slightly hard. Toyo Proxes 4 is my choice over the Kumho ASX tires. If you want THE SUPER ALL-SEASON tire, the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S is the tire to have.. the ride quality isn't as good as the other's listed above, but for the performance you get in the rain, sleet, snow, and especially in the dry, is really the bang for the buck in my opinion. The Michelin Pilot Sport A/S is more expensive than the other tires, but the returns you get from the tire outweigh the price differences of the other tires and its own price. If you can find a "new-used" set of Michelin Pilot Sports A/S, then you got it made (as I found myself a set with only 1000 miles on it and bought it for $500 from another Subaru owner).

 

Keefe

[red beast]

i just put the perrin adjustable in my outback 3.0r two weekends ago. it took 75% of the roll out on the middle setting. the next change are rims and tires. i sold on the idea of getting the michelin pilots but, i'm gonna have to wait awhile until i get the rims.

[almondcookie]

What about replacement/upgrading of:

 

Just rear,

Just front,

Both rear and front,

With brace, no brace,

Adjustable, non-adjustable (perhaps for future driving events),

 

Seems also like no one has mentioned anything about endlinks by themselves or inconjuction with the bars (adjustable or non).

 

I do agree with the previous statements. Putting the right tire on the road helps. I went from stock to Azenis. A little more sure-footed-ness and confidence in turns but with just only tires the car does still feel uneasy (to me).

[SBT]

Just attended a Monte Carlo type rally this past weekend. Timed start, specific check in times at specific check in points and lots of driving in between. In this case almost 200 miles in 6 hours. Most stages were done at posted speed limits, and many parts of the stages were done in mountainous and or up/down, twisty-turny backroads that allowed you the opportunity to wring your car out.

 

I entered my LGT wagon with only the JDM 20mm RSB and AVO RSB Bushings. I had used the AVO adjustable end links for a short while (< 50 miles) but found that the end links were too short (about 3/4"), even when extended to their maximum "connected" length. Found that the end-links pulled down on the RSB which caused too much pre-load on the RSB which made the back end of the car feel waggy. So I took them off and replaced them with the stocker enf links which work fine.

 

Stock end links are fine for all but the hardest driving as they are solid and have ball joints at each end, unlike the previous gen's soft stock end link with holes instead of ball joints. So there's very little flex in the stock setup. Just no "shortening" flexibility/capability when/if you lower the car.

 

The JDM 20mm RSB will give you a ton of bang for the bucket. It's a Subaru of Japan bar so the fit is perfect with no fitment issues at all. ~$170 shipped with AVO bushings. The car handled really well, even approaching and surpassing the speeds that you mentioned above on some pretty tough back roads. All it needs now is some great summer rubber and it will be near perfect for 88.9% of the time. Intend to upgrade to Bilstein GT-B struts w/GT-B springs (or possibly Pink or Swift sprrings). Will see this summer where that goes.

 

My upgrade process follows this path:

 

1) Upgrade rear sway bar (keep that wagon tail form wagging)

2) Upgrade tires to summer only/winter only tireis

3) Upgrade stock struts and springs - Bilstein GT-B, Pinks/Swift springs

4) Engine work (ECU reflash, motor oil, mounts for engine/transmission, etc.)

 

SBT

[Rockets GT]

Thanks to everyone for their input, I really appreciate the help!! I have to weigh my options and determine whats the best set up for me. Thanks again.

 

Rick

[Xenonk]

What about replacement/upgrading of:

 

Just rear,

Just front,

Both rear and front,

With brace, no brace,

Adjustable, non-adjustable (perhaps for future driving events),

 

Seems also like no one has mentioned anything about endlinks by themselves or inconjuction with the bars (adjustable or non).

 

Just rear = more oversteer, easier for turn-in

 

Just front = more understeer, easier to track-out

 

Both front and rear = depends on the size and relationship you are upgrading

 

With/out brace = not as effective, but it enhances the same characteristics as the sway bars do

 

Adjustable/non = gives you flexibility to dial-in your taste in balancing the car closer to neutral, also beneficial for guys like me that changes to different tires and race on the weekends in different conditions.

 

Endlinks on stock = wont do much, the weak link is the sway bar itself

 

Endlinks on new bars = will increase the sways' purpose.. I prefer shorter or non-adjustable solid endlinks as there's less flex in them, the shorter they are the, the more of the purpose of bar will become appearent.

 

Almondcookie, you can increase stability with the change in tire pressures.. lower the rear some to promote understeer or raise the rear for more oversteer.. lower the front, you will either get a lot more understeer or mild oversteer as it is based on conditions and the relationship of the tire pressures of front vs. rear (same effects of increasing to a larger or decreasing to a smaller sway bar). Tire pressures are probably one of the trickest things to set up, but when it's done right, then you get a lot of performance out of it. If you need proof of it, I have a results page of two national winning autox drivers sharing the same STi in the rain.. one ran 10 psi lower all around than the other driver.. the difference in margin was over 2 seconds. They ran only 5 mins apart from each other.

 

 

Keefe

[Tommyh]

I don't remember if I read this or not, but is the JDM swaybar adjustable or not?

 

If it isn't, I think I may go with the Whiteline 20 mm adjustable bar. That way I can find my own preferences for street and the rare trackday duty.

 

Thanks for the advise!

[Drift Monkey]

I don't remember if I read this or not, but is the JDM swaybar adjustable or not?

 

If it isn't, I think I may go with the Whiteline 20 mm adjustable bar. That way I can find my own preferences for street and the rare trackday duty.

 

Thanks for the advise!

Not adj. The whiteline is the one I'm getting (rear) 22-24mm adj.

[Tommyh]

Not adj. The whiteline is the one I'm getting (rear) 22-24mm adj.

 

Ok, MPJperformance has it listed as 20mm, unless you're reffering to thier adjustability settings.

[Drift Monkey]

Ok, MPJperformance has it listed as 20mm, unless you're reffering to thier adjustability settings.

http://www.rallitek.com/products.asp?ID=273&PP=&HB=Y&ACC=&SP=

[almondcookie]

Thanks Keefe ... always a fountain of knowledge.

 

I guess for me it's not an under or oversteer issue but rather the bodyroll I'm perceiving. Does that make any sense? On some turns, the car feels like I'm driving my mom's minivan and the whole thing wants to tip over.

 

Red: if you have the perrin adjustable, what setting do you have it at to get rid of your bodyroll? have you tried the other settings and have better or worse experience compared to your current setting?

[Xenonk]

The fastest way to get rid of body roll is really within the springs (which can result to a rougher ride since you will have to compensate for suspension travel and shock valving). The cheap way to get rid of body roll is by adding a larger sway bar (which can take away the independency in the suspension), so you can see where car maker engineers have to decide between spring rates vs. sway bars (comfort vs performance).

 

Really nothing wrong with some body roll (think of it as some actual "fizziks" that you can feel to let you know that your tires are still gripping.. it's when you start losing the lean and sliding sideways that tells you that your tires are past the limit of grip). Just lowering the ride height and compensate the lowering with stiffer suspension parts (and neglect sway bars all together) can eliminate body roll.

 

 

Keefe

[gtguy]

The other thing is that body roll isn't bad. What's really important is the angle at which the rubber meets the road. A car such as the Legacy has some body roll, but also an excellently-designed suspension. So yes, it is counter-intuitive in that you have to almost think past what you're feeling, to what the car is doing.

 

Same curve, same speed, my GT wagon is more composed than my WRX wagon, with the full STi/SPT/Cusco package was, even though the GT has more body roll.

 

As Keefe said, as you eliminate body roll, you also eliminate ride compliance, which isn't necessarily a good thing. I always come back to my Tein HA experience, with 450/375 springs. The car had zero body roll, no question. But it handled better on DMS Golds, with 180/180 spring rates. Yes, it had more body roll, but the wheels/tires tracked much better.

 

Larger swaybars will ameliorate some body roll, but they will never eliminate it, because some of that is a consequence of the springs.

 

Kevin

[emlevins]

Just an editorial comment - I found this thread to be very, very informative...and confirms all else that I have previously read and my plans. Thanks to all.

 

As an aside, I'm having my JDM RSB installed in two weeks (to coincide with 7500 mile maintenance and oil/filter change) and have been wrestling with replacing the RE-92s at that time...with either AS or summer/winter tires (still haven't decided)...and will be ordering the AP soon as well. That may be the end of the road for me...or I may do brake upgrades to reduce pedal travel and increase initial bite.

 

Thanks again folks!

[fzanetti]

Will definitely upgrade with JDM sway bars as well, this thread has been very helpful to decide where to go/stop as far as suspension upgrade...

 

Thanks a million guys,

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA