Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 After 225K and really NO other problems - just routine maintenance - our trusty rusty 1993 Legacy wagon won't start. My wife said it drove fine to work but when she came out at lunch to run an errand it wouldn't start. Here's my diagonosis so far. Has a spark half tank fuel Turns over fine Fuses in engine compartment and drivers kick panel are good - not sure about the square box deals (switches?). No fuel in/out at the canister on the drivers side fender. I suspect fuel pump but wonder is there a fuse or other electrical switch to check first? What pump to use? How to I replace the fuel pump - is it acccessible from inside the car and done with std. hand tools? I am a decent backyard mechanic currently without a job so I want to fix this myself if I can. Really apprectiate any thoughts or help! jdn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I'd agree, bad fuel pump. I haven't done this on my Legacy, but the FSM says there is an access panel in the trunk floor. Let me know if you have a 2.2L or a 2.5L and I'll tell you what to check electrically, to determine that its actually the pump at fault and not the wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 The engine is a 2.2L, not a 4-wheel drive, not a turbo, just a solid legacy L wagon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 I'm actually curious as to why the car didn't loose power and then die? My wife is fairly trustworthy and so if it lost power I think she'd know. Just seems a bit odd that a fuel pump just suddenly quits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Before you do any of this, I'd make sure you can't hear the fuel pump running. You should hear it for a few seconds when you turn the key to on but don't crank the motor. If you hear it, this isn't your issue. If you don't hear it, pull the access cover in the trunk and unplug the wiring connector from the pump. With the ignition off you should have less than five ohms resistance between pin four and chassis ground and with the ignition on you should have more than ten volts between pin one and chassis ground. If both of those check out, replace the fuel pump. If they don't you have a wiring issue and there are a whole bunch more steps to take to find the problem. When you're looking at the connector, with the little locking tab facing up, the pin numbers are: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I'm actually curious as to why the car didn't loose power and then die? My wife is fairly trustworthy and so if it lost power I think she'd know. Just seems a bit odd that a fuel pump just suddenly quits? Not odd at all. Electrical things generally fail instantly, not gradually. As anyone who has ever messed with small electronics or electric motors knows, as soon as you let the magic smoke out the thing will no longer work. I came out of a restaurant once, got in my Civic, started it up, backed out of the parking space, drove forward maybe fifty feet and the car died. Distributor failed. Just like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 I'd read about hearing the fuel pump and I don't hear it but honestly I don't know if I have ever heard it!? All I hear are the bells and whistles warning me of everything! I'll have my wife turn the key tomorrow and listen with my ear right up to the pump and see if I can hear anything. I'll also do the electrical checks you mention. Can a pump just suddenly die? I'm used to a gradual death on a fuel pump. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 I'd read about hearing the fuel pump and I don't hear it but honestly I don't know if I have ever heard it!? All I hear are the bells and whistles warning me of everything! I'll have my wife turn the key tomorrow and listen with my ear right up to the pump and see if I can hear anything. I'll also do the electrical checks you mention. Can a pump just suddenly die? I'm used to a gradual death on a fuel pump. Thanks! Let me know what comes of the tests. If they check out, I'll give you the additional procedures. And yes, that's how electrical things die. The "magic smoke" thing is a joke that us enginerds use, referring to how electrical devices just burn up, (releasing some nasty smelling smoke) and then no longer work. Edit: And you've heard the fuel pump, you just never realized it and / or knew what it was. Go to oe of your other cars and turn it to on. That "bzzzzzzzz" sound you hear for a few seconds but then goes away is the fuel pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Any suggestions on the brand of pump? I'll take my trailer to the car tomorrow in case I need to tow it home to work on it but my hope is to get the part, get tothcar, do the tests and fix it in the parkin' lot! :-) I have access to a NAPA and Carquest that generally treat me well and give good parts - any other's? Talk to you in the morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 If you need the pump tomorrow, I'd go to NAPA. They've never steered me wrong. If you can wait and want to save a few bucks, rockauto.com is an awesome parts site that carries name brands at very low prices, with very reasonable shipping costs and very fast shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Before you do any of this, I'd make sure you can't hear the fuel pump running. You should hear it for a few seconds when you turn the key to on but don't crank the motor. If you hear it, this isn't your issue. If you don't hear it, pull the access cover in the trunk and unplug the wiring connector from the pump. With the ignition off you should have less than five ohms resistance between pin four and chassis ground and with the ignition on you should have more than ten volts between pin one and chassis ground. If both of those check out, replace the fuel pump. If they don't you have a wiring issue and there are a whole bunch more steps to take to find the problem. When you're looking at the connector, with the little locking tab facing up, the pin numbers are: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Update: I had no voltage from pin 1 to ground, the ohms checked out. I did have over 10 volts between pin 2 and ground and didn't have this thread so I took the gamble and installed a new fuel pump. New pump does not function so I assume an electrical problem somewhere? I do have the car home so I can test it easier. Any suggestions on where to go from here? thanks:spin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aace55 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 PLZ help me I just got a 1995 legacy wagon with starting problems. It stalls just after a few minutes of running. Then it starts again and runs for a few minutes, then it stalls again... It takes a while to start again after many tries it does start and then it runs for a few minutes to do it all over again. What part do I replace what part do I need ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Before you do any of this, I'd make sure you can't hear the fuel pump running. You should hear it for a few seconds when you turn the key to on but don't crank the motor. If you hear it, this isn't your issue. If you don't hear it, pull the access cover in the trunk and unplug the wiring connector from the pump. With the ignition off you should have less than five ohms resistance between pin four and chassis ground and with the ignition on you should have more than ten volts between pin one and chassis ground. If both of those check out, replace the fuel pump. If they don't you have a wiring issue and there are a whole bunch more steps to take to find the problem. When you're looking at the connector, with the little locking tab facing up, the pin numbers are: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Here's additional information: Ignition on for voltage, off for the ohm readings Pin 1 Ohm = 1 (same reading when nothign is connected to meter), V = 0 Pin 2 Ohm = 0.035, V=11.87 Pin 3 - there is no pin 3 Pin 4 Ohm = 0.002, V=0 Pin 5 Ohm = 0.001, V=0 Pin 6 Ohm = 0,048, v=4.58 I pulled the new pump and with test wires connected the possitive and negative terminals to the battery and it spun for a split secong and then nothing. This suggests the pump is good but is there a safety switch in them to prevent them from running dry? It won't spin now - nor did the old pump but again the pump has no fuel in it so it may be a safety switch built into the pump? Some how - even thoug the car is on a trailer and not running - the fuel cell got pressurized!? When I went to pull the new pump back out to test it I pulled the outlet hose off the tank a fuel began running out. Once I relieved the pressure via the fuel filler cap I was okay. How did the pressure get built back up in the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Hmm...I have the 98 FSM, so your 93 could be slightly different as far as the wiring goes. The new pump should run if you give it twelve volts though. I usually use a power tool battery and some short pieces of wire to test stuff like this. Bring it back to NAPA and tell them the pump you got doesn't run when you give it twelve volts and get a new one. edit: The Haynes manual covers all Legacys from 90-99 and it includes wiring diagrams, so your wiring should be the same as my 98. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 PLZ help me I just got a 1995 legacy wagon with starting problems. It stalls just after a few minutes of running. Then it starts again and runs for a few minutes, then it stalls again... It takes a while to start again after many tries it does start and then it runs for a few minutes to do it all over again. What part do I replace what part do I need ??? Make a new thread for this, so we don't end up with responses for two different problems in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 Does anyone's manual or knowledge tell where the Fuel Pump Relay is for the 1993 Legacy 2.2L non-turbo? I have a wiring diagram that shows there is one and the wire color coming in but nothing correlates to what is on the car and Subaru has done a great job with the harness - all butoned up - and I can't see wire colors. The main fuse/relay box has 6 relays in it and 4 say A/C which could be since the wire diagram shows 4 relays off the AC for the main fan and the sub fan; but perhaps this has nothing to actually do with the Air conditioning? The other 2 relays say H/L Relay LH and H/L Relay RH. jdn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 B46... http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x265/rmb2485/Legacy%20GT/Untitled.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 Thanks for the diagram. It appears to be under the dash from the picture? Lord help me - that is a tough diagram to follow and looking under the dash it will NOT be obvious! I'll see what I can find but if anyone comes up with a photo/decription of where the Fuel Pump Relay is you will be my hero. Thanks, jdn:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Yeah, that wiring diagram is of everything that's under the dash. That's the best I can find in the FSM, but I took a peek in my car and there are definitely a few relays in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 Based on some other information I found I replaced the relay that I believe to be the Fuel Pump Relay. The relay I replaced is a round relay with a green 4-wire plug inserted into it. It sits in a metal clip mounted to the kick panel on the drivers side just a few inches above the inside fuse panel. You have to remove the dash cover panel below the sterring column and then remove the two nuts that hold the fuse panel in palce. This allows you to move some wires around and get to the relays. The green plug/relay in in the bracket with a larger light brown plug/relay which I understand is the ignition relay. Bad news is I still don't get any voltage to pin one at the fuel pump with the ignition on. I'm going to put another new fuel pump in and connect everything back up and see waht happens but it's not looking good. Is there a way to test a relay to see if it is working - just to see if that is the problem - or part of the problem? May be time to drop the car off at the pro's? jdn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 Thanks for the help! That was a steep learning curve but the fuel pump and the fuel pump relay are replaced and the car is running! From the thread above the only thing that never correlated was the voltage from pin one to ground with the ignition on. Even with the new relay installed and the ignition on I never got voltage on the number one pin. Regardless once it was all buttoned up the pump cycled on when the ignition was turned to "ON" and the car started and runs. The lacking (or hard to find) information seemed to be the location of the fuel pump relay which I described earlier in the thread. On the drivers side kick panel buried in a hard to find location above the fuse/relay panel. Thanks for the help! We joke that my wife cries at every sappy moment, at weddings, during movies, etc. (and she does) but she was so relieved that her car was back working and that getting the kids to school and her to work tomorrow is no longer a problem that she teared up!? Women - got to love 'em. Guess I can't complain as this is the first real repair we've ever done on this car other the the CV joints (x5)! We've done the clutch at 180K and the timing belt/water pump twice as preventative maintenance and of course the oil, batteries, plugs, wires, brakes, etc. but this has been a great car for 230K miles! We paid $13,500 for the car in 1994 as it was brand new but had a factory rebate to get it off the dealer lot to make room for the 1994's - and it was a front wheel drive in Colorado where the 4 wheel drives rule. It is my third Subaru, had the US Ski team 4x4 wagon (until it was destroyed by a drunk driver in a Suburban) in HS and then had a 1980 BRAT in HS and College that was a DD and and ice racer! I'm happy! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmb2485 Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Glad you got it fixed. I guess you don't know if the problem was the pump or the relay though? Your 93 wiring must be different than my 98 wiring if there is no voltage at pin one. That or the FSM is wrong, which is entirely possible. I's also odd that they have a bunch of relays stuffed up behind the dash and unlabeled and that the FSM doesn't even mention them except in that one wiring diagram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buff4lo Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 No, I don't know for sure if it was the FP or the relay; however if you put 12 volts to the old FP it doesn't spin - which is why I repalced it in the first place. I suspect the pump went and caused the relay to go but there's know way to know for sure? I do have the old pump so I may get curious and submerge in in Isopropyl alcohol or something and try and give it 12V with jumper wires to see it it works. Also was told by NAPA parts guy to NEVER put power to a fuel pump that isn't submerged in liguid as they are VERY susceptible to heat and they can fail almost instantly? There's no safety switch built in to prevent them from operating without fluid which seems odd if they fail that quickly - what if you ran out of gas and continued to crank the motor? Yeah - not to knock Subaru but the relays are supposed to fail first to save the system so why would you put the weak link in such a darn difficult place to access and not lable it? This makes a $26.00 part a $150.00 repair job!? Only thing I can think of on the pin 1 voltage is that one/more of the other pins needed to be grounded or connected somehow to complete the circuit? Still doesn't make sense to me as having power to the pin and grounding it should show voltage - and none of the pins had voltage in the 10-12 range with or without the ignition 'ON'. Won't complain - it's working! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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