downshifting

[gsr94]

i used to drive an integra, and i was wondering about downshifting on a lgt. i read about how fragile subaru trannies are so how high of a rev do u downshift.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

I rev match on all downshifts, I don't think there a limit you should follow for downshifting as long as you know how to do it properly and are at the correct revs there is no shock on the tranney so it won't matter how high you do it. Of course I don't rev match ot 6000 becuase at that point you shouldn't be in that gear anyway (unless of course your on a track going into a tight corner).

 

 

On another point, Subaru's transmissions aren't fragile, its idiot drivers who drop the clutch at redline repeatedly to look cool and launch their cars on the streets that are the ones dropping transmissions.

[bikerboi911]

If you want to be a fast, smooth driver and save your clutch and transmission it's a must to blip the throttle to match revs to downshift. You can easily upset the balance of any car by not doing so. It's the only way I know how to drive and shouldn't hurt a thing if done right.

[reddog15]

Also try to get good at double clutching!

[Xenonk]

there's really no need for double clutching anymore (car has syncros, and why bother wearing out the pressure plate from all that pumping).

 

All drivers (regardless if you race or not) should know how to:

 

Heel-toe

Rev-match

Clutchless shifting

Double clutching

"O'Neil" shifting

Left foot braking

 

 

Keefe

[mwiener2]

I find it really hard to heel-toe this car. Pedals just aren't right. If I'm at a light I can do it, but I can't get my foot placed right coming around a corner or something.

 

what is O'neil shifting

[Xenonk]

Heel toe at the light? You mean, coming down to a stop? If you can do it in one instance, it's no different from doing the heel-toe through a corner (you just dont come all the way down to a stop, just down to whatever gear you need to be in, and get back on the gas right after you are done braking).

 

Eventhough I have wide feet, I found myself sometimes missing the blip on the throttle. Some shoes are easier than others, but I eventually decided to get a set of Momo pedals (the new Airmetal series) and I relocated the brake pedal closer to the gas and the throttle closer to the brake (I closed the gap by 1/4"). By doing this, I kinda screwed up the positions of me doing Left Foot Braking (but a better set up not to acidentally to rub on the clutch pedal).

 

"the O'Neil" shift is a rally technique [see http://www.teamoneil.com/ ](practiced by Veteran Rally Driver Tim O'Neil). This technique could also be used in autocrosses (if you are that in a dying need to be in 1st gear). The O'Neil shift is when you are doing a clutchless downshift WHILE left foot braking.. basically you are not blipping the throttle (like in heel-toe), instead, you are perfectly timing the downshift based on pure speed coming down from mid to lower gears (but the rpms "float" and the syncros would help you fit the gears right in, but in a super smooth butter sort of way). I have only tried the O'Neil shift from 3rd to 2nd about a dozen times and I managed to get only 33% (the other 67%, the trann wouldn't let me get into 2nd) as I would miss the "window of opportunity" by just .2 seconds off every time. Never force a shift if you feel a slight grind (that's where you push in the clutch). But as you start to get the feel for the car for all this clutchless shifting, you should be practicing less and less of the clutch and all the shifting should be smoother and smoother.. it's all about practice.. If you shift right, you shouldnt be abusing the clutch, in fact, you would make your tranny parts and clutch last longer.

 

I have learned off my 2002 WRX (first stick car and it was modded to 230 whp). In my short two years, I managed to have 65,000+ miles and 2,000+ of those miles were on the road track and autocrosses and countless amounts of shifting. And I was still on my stock tranny, stock clutch.. the clutch had another 20+k miles before I would have to replace the clutch.

 

Whatever you do as a driver, never dump clutches, never slam gears. Even in drag racing, all of that gear slamming and clutch dumping is not neccessary. If the clutch is going to catch, let it catch, but dont force it to catch by dumping the clutch and having the clutch smack up against the flywheel. Dont slam gears as I have yet seen a stock OEM car have dog-tooth/straight cut gears.. you will eventually round out your gears and making your gears useless. I have yet blown up a tranny or beat the crap out of it. Just learn to be smooth (and yes, you can still be fast as fast hard shifting doesnt mean you will be fast), and your tranny will live a long and happy life.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I really want to educate people that ANY clutch and tranny can survive a long and happy life if you know how to drive a stick.. if you dont, learn. And yes, please drive like a pro. Why should anyone think less of themselves as a driver?

 

Keefe

[Xenonk]

Mweiner, practice positioning your foot so that only the big toe/ball of your foot only touches the CORNER of the brake pedal. When you push the brake deep enough (harder braking), you will find the side of your foot within millimeters of the throttle and all you do is just rock the side of your foot onto the throttle for the 'blip'.. A harder car to do heel-toe would be a Mustang, but it's still doable. I have yet sat and drove a car that was "IMPOSSIBLE" to do a heel-toe.

 

Back on subject, you can do any rev of a downshift (it all depends on what your speed and gear you want to be in). I can do all kinds of downshifting (and not limited to the LGT):

 

from 5th to 2nd using heel toe

from 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd using heel toe

from 5th to 4th or 3rd using rev-matching to prevent anti-ricer-fly-bys

 

Downshifting is relative to speed of the car and the rpms and the maximum speed allowed per gear (which is simple, redline on the rpms). To keep the clutch lasting long and such, do your rev-matches and downshifting around the 3,000 rpm range (since that's where the syncros are not working hard). Shifting is like butter on the GT, and I have yet found a "perfect shift" that requires me to use any more strength than 2 fingers to just push/pull the shifter into the correct gear without the need to clutch in.

 

Keefe

[Xenonk]

For you guys that want to see some of my work, just watch the "footwork" video and the "Xenonk2" video here:

 

http://evasionoftruth.com/videos/

 

Keefe

[mwiener2]

At a light I meant sitting there and playing with where my foot is. I gots little feets, size 7. Although when I have passengers and I ask how my shifting was ( I ask cause it's my first manual tranny) they usually say it's not bad. But then later add, it was like I was in a race car. So I guess I'm shifting correctly to my standards. Won't pass the limosine driver's exam, but whatev'.

 

Now if I only had my car so I could go practice....grrr I hate this stupid PT Cruiser rental car grrrrr

[Deer Killer]

there's really no need for double clutching anymore (car has syncros, and why bother wearing out the pressure plate from all that pumping).

Because it's a wear part anyway? There's just something wrong about strong arming it into a gear when you could double clutch and have it go in smoothly, besides you're rev matching _anyway_ shouldn't take any longer.

[Xenonk]

I have size 9 shoes but you should still be able to do it as you have the same size feet as my friend who is a better driver than me. Practicing at the light is easier because you are pushing the brake pedal deeper to keep the car from rolling anywhere. Heel-toe is used for harder braking typically, (it will be harder for you to reach the throttle if you dont push the brake in deep enough). It's still doable if you just keep your big toe at the bottom corner of the brake pedal, and angle your foot where your heel is just to the left of the bottom of the throttle pedal. That way, you know that your foot will hit the throttle for the blip.

 

Sometimes I can hit the brakes and hit the throttle with one push (it's really not cool when you want to stop instead of rotating the car).

 

Keefe

[Xenonk]

Becuase it's a wear part anyway? There's just something wrong about strong arming it into a gear when you could double clutch and have it go in smoothly, besides you're rev matching _anyway_ shouldn't take any longer.

 

What I am saying is the time to shift from double clutching vs. single clutch pump and shift is no different. It's still rev matching, so why bother pushing the clutch in twice when you can do it in one sweep? Or better yet, why bother pushing in the clutch all the way if the engine speed and tranny speed are the same rpms?

 

And no, I dont strong-arm any of my shifting.. 2 fingers to just tap the shifter in and out of a gear is really no effort. I am not a banger if that's what you are implying. If anything, brake pads are cheaper to replace than a pressure plate from the clutch.

 

Keefe

[Deer Killer]

Or better yet, why bother pushing in the clutch all the way if the engine speed and tranny speed are the same rpms?

Because this is nearly impossible, especially with the DBW latency we have. It doesn't even make sense either, since the engine speed takes much more time to rise and fall then you'd ever need to do a complete double clutch. Your synchros are eating the speed difference, probably on the way out from one gear AND on the way in to the next gear. Unless you can perfectly make neutral acceleration, pull out of gear, rev match exactly to your current (decreasing) speed and then put it in gear. I'd like to see this done faster than a normal shift or a double clutch shift. Regardless - fine if you are racing, not fine if you plan on keeping your tranny past or even during warranty.

 

And no, I dont strong-arm any of my shifting.. 2 fingers to just tap the shifter in and out of a gear is really no effort. I am not a banger if that's what you are implying. If anything, brake pads are cheaper to replace than a pressure plate from the clutch.

There are practical limits to the minimum force required to make the synchro work at any given speed differential. Either you're putting a large amount of force or you're waiting a long time for the synchro on a large downshift.

 

How do brake pads change your input shaft speed again? The clutch is meant to be replaced and is a relatively cheap and easy job. I have no hesitation about putting wear on it.

 

For the record I can do a double clutch downshift faster than a normal downshift.. because I don't have to wait for the synchros on the upcoming gear. Driving a car at 9/10ths with failing synchro's for years can teach you such things.

[Xenonk]

Because this is nearly impossible, especially with the DBW latency we have. It doesn't even make sense either, since the engine speed takes much more time to rise and fall then you'd ever need to do a complete double clutch. Your synchros are eating the speed difference, probably on the way out from one gear AND on the way in to the next gear. Unless you can perfectly make neutral acceleration, pull out of gear, rev match exactly to your current (decreasing) speed and then put it in gear. I'd like to see this done faster than a normal shift or a double clutch shift. Regardless - fine if you are racing, not fine if you plan on keeping your tranny past or even during warranty.

 

I do it all the time, and it's done all in the right rpms. It's doable (living proof). I can give you the whole actual math for such things, but to make it short, it's very doable. Granted, there's nothing wrong with double clutching as it should be a skill that everyone should learn anyways. Like I said before, I have gone through my WRX with the stock tranny and still practice clutchless shifting.. did I keep it past my warranty on miles? I'd say say yes at 65,000+ miles and it would have lasted another 20,000+ if I didnt totaled my WRX at a drifting event When it comes to it, it's just practice.. it's not impossible or nearly impossible, it's just need some practice.

 

 

There are practical limits to the minimum force required to make the synchro work at any given speed differential. Either you're putting a large amount of force or you're waiting a long time for the synchro on a large downshift.

 

Nope, not much of a wait if you know where the sweets spots are. If you are out of the sweet spot range (which the window itself is narrow), then might as well just push in the clutch, rev match and blip it. Remember, you can always pull it out of gear, let the rpms drop, and rev match to the next gear.

 

How do brake pads change your input shaft speed again? The clutch is meant to be replaced and is a relatively cheap and easy job. I have no hesitation about putting wear on it.

 

What I am saying here is that it's about engine speed vs. tranny speed (which is related to the wheels spinning at a certain speed)... so you can control both the engine speed (throttle blipping) and the tranny speed (slowing down the car using the brakes). And it's faster and cheaper to swap brake pads than it is to do clutch replacement. $90 for a full set of brake pads for a 30 min job is a lot more appealing to me than a clutch job for 1+ hour.

 

 

For the record I can do a double clutch downshift faster than a normal downshift.. because I don't have to wait for the synchros on the upcoming gear. Driving a car at 9/10ths with failing synchro's for years can teach you such things.

 

I dont doubt your driving skills, and I dont doubt the synchros taking less of a toll (as double clutching technique all started from cars without synchros). It's just that I am saying that you can use the brakes more to slow down the difference in tranny speeds to the engine speeds where you can blip the throttle to the "sweet spot" where the synchros dont take a beating. Two different ways of saving the syncros from a beat down (rev matching and double clutching). I am just going to make sure that my driving of 9/10ths wont give me failing synchros. It hasnt yet, and I dont plan on letting it happen either.

 

Keefe

[live-]

While we are on this, I am currently on my first MT car, so I have a few questions:

 

First off, by clutchless shifting, do you mean you pull it into neutral without using the clutch, blip the throttle to the exact RPM needed for the next gear while putting a small amount of pressure on the stick towards the gear, and if you get it right it will pop into the next gear without ever depressing the clutch? When I run a search on google, all I am finding is clutchless shifting on motorcycles, so if someone could help me out I'd be very thankful.

 

Also, maybe I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the purpose of left-foot braking was to correct understeer in FWD cars - what's the purpose of it in an AWD car? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

 

Thanks a lot for any responses.

[reddog15]

Double clutch will make life easier when your first gear synchro nearly gives out, as it did in my WRX, and you wish to shift into first without stopping the car.

[Xenonk]

While we are on this, I am currently on my first MT car, so I have a few questions:

 

First off, by clutchless shifting, do you mean you pull it into neutral without using the clutch, blip the throttle to the exact RPM needed for the next gear while putting a small amount of pressure on the stick towards the gear, and if you get it right it will pop into the next gear without ever depressing the clutch? When I run a search on google, all I am finding is clutchless shifting on motorcycles, so if someone could help me out I'd be very thankful.

 

Also, maybe I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the purpose of left-foot braking was to correct understeer in FWD cars - what's the purpose of it in an AWD car? Sorry if that's a stupid question.

 

Thanks a lot for any responses.

 

Clutchless shiftiing is when you dont use the clutch for engagements for shifting. So yea, it's all done with rev-matching. But if you do it right, you dont even need to blip the throttle if you know how to time the upshifts correctly. For downshifting clutchless, you'll need to blip the throttle if you are not going to slow down the car using the brakes. Of course, the flywheel spins faster (less rotational mass) than a tire/wheel, so it's easier to speed up the engine speed than the slowing down the tranny speed by braking.

 

As for Left Foot Braking, the rule stll applies to getting rid of understeer in a AWD car (since most brake setups is where the bront brakes are larger, and the torque will split accordingly and most likely be sent to the rear wheels). You'll still get the same effect using left foot braking in an AWD car as you would do in a FWD car, just probably not as abrupt. Another thing to note is that you are making boost while controlling the understeering for a turbo AWD car. This technique eliminates turbo lag, it's very popular among the "skidpad artists" of autocrossing at a very tight radius.

 

 

Keefe

[Avishar]

So clutchless shifting is NOT bad for the tranny?

[Xenonk]

So clutchless shifting is NOT bad for the tranny?

 

It's bad if you dont do it right. Dont force the shift if the gears are not in sync (especially when the synchros can't help you). Takes practice.. practice on an older car or a car that you can beat on.. after you master this technique, you should have your rev-matching, heel-toe, double-clutching, and O'Neil shifting down to second nature. Hopefully that your shifting is smoother than an automatic by then as well. Driving is just one of those kind of things where it's "practice makes perfect" as it's a physical thing as an athlete playing a sport. Hand-eye coordination is very important.. you just need to bring all your senses to the limit to drive well.

 

Keefe

[forestir]

Xenonk, thanks for the inspiring words... "smoother than an automatic." I had achieved that with my former Integra, but years of skill neglect driving an automatic has me pretty lurchy with clutch/throttle coordination.

 

I suppose the Integra having no torque helps. And the non-linear turbo boost coming on just as I'd normally shift (at 3k) hinders.

 

Downshifting to pass is a piece of cake though. Soooo much power.

[Xenonk]

yea, try clutchless downshifting while keeping the flux of the g-forces to a minimum...

 

Keefe

[forestir]

Nah, I'm a real wuss with my car. Not gonna try anything clutchless--maybe in the distant future when all of my shifts are perfectly rev matched. Waaaay in the future.

 

I'm still trying to figure out foot position for heel'n toe. I've read your posts and watched videos, but need to gain confidence in braking with just the very edge of the ball of my big toe. Thanks so much for all of your helpful posts!

[Xenonk]

Nah, I'm a real wuss with my car. Not gonna try anything clutchless--maybe in the distant future when all of my shifts are perfectly rev matched. Waaaay in the future.

 

I'm still trying to figure out foot position for heel'n toe. I've read your posts and watched videos, but need to gain confidence in braking with just the very edge of the ball of my big toe. Thanks so much for all of your helpful posts!

 

 

It's not hard at all.. you can use the side of your foot to blip the throttle.. unless you have some really narrow feet, you should be able to make the heel-toe work out just fine..

 

clutchless shifting is easy to achieve.. just practice less and less on using the clutch WHILE you rev-match the shift..

 

As for rev-matching, I taught my gf in 15 mins.. I teach the 5th-4th downshift with the LONG version of the double clutching method.

Sample:

5th gear, clutch in, shift to neutral, clutch out, let the rpms drop to idle WHILE the car is still coasting, rev the motor to the rpms that matches the speed of the car in whatever gear you plan to be in (in this sample is 4th gear), clutch in real quick and soft, shift into 4th quick, clutch out real quick, the car should be smooth.

 

When you do all of this in one smooth motion, the rev-match downshift all happens just as fast as you upshift. The fun part is when you start skipping gears (5th to 3rd or 2nd, or 4th to 2nd).

 

Keefe

[jj808]

I have read all these posts and i still cant figure out what you guys are talking about. I guess im the type of person that needs to see it done before i can begin to learn it. Never seen/heard of "double clutching" or "o'neil" shifting. I have heard of heal-toe but never seen it done. I do rev match but its not intentional. Its just the way i was taught. Got a bum left leg/ankle/foot so the left foot braking is way wierd. Sometimes its too much and sometimes it not enough. Just a matter of practice and time for that i guess.