Why does Subaru generally seem to use narrow wheels?

[SUBE555]

I guess this keeps coming up from one view or another. Back in the first generation RS's, they used a good 16x7" wheel that gave a little more support with the ability for a slightly more square sidewall, thus results in slightly better feedback. The newer RS's and WRX's now use a 16x6.5" wheel, it compromises handling slightly (though less of an effect to the additional weight factor) while it also limits factory brake options to an extent as well. The previous RS's had a better list of brake options including the STi 4-pots which won't fit the '02+ 16" wheels. Now the 17x7" wheels on the new GT are just fine, but why do they need to go with the 18x7" size for the Spec B wheel? This seriously inhibits tire selection, and the prices are very unreasonable for the required 215/45R-18 size as well. The 225/40R-18 size requires a 7.5" wide wheel but has a much more vast selection of tire options additional to the cost being significantly less. Just browsing through Tire Rack, the previous (OE size) has 5 options ranging from $173 to $391. The latter more popular size has 81 options wth ECSTA MX's around $135, S-03's, G-FORCE T/As and other popular models in the $160-$190 range. That's a BIG difference in selection. I understand they might not need that slight addition of width, but speaking in market terms, I don't know who in their right mind would want to import those wheels with that limited of a selection. I think the Spec B design is the best look for the new Legs personally in an 18" wheel which I'd consider them for summer use (yes I know about the weight thing Kevin, we've heard your side of the story so I'm not listening to you :P), but with the way the tire situation is for them, it's just idiotic. Paul do you have any insight?

[racerdave]

I don't know why they do that with an 18 either. The RX-8's 18x8 seems just about right. And the stock tires on the 8 are 225/45/18s. 245/40/18s are no sweat. 18x8s it would seem, would be a lot better on the Legacys.

[gurpman]

Do narrower tires result in better gas mileage? I would guess so due to less rolling resistance and lighter weight.

[SUBE555]

Actually, by using 7.5" wheels with the same tires, probably negligible and it allows for more options while giving a more square sidewall for handling purposes. That's best as I could figure reason for going with at least a 7.5" width wheel. Most tires have a general range of fittment.

[akm3]

Maybe because they are popular in snowey regions and narrow tires are better on ice/snow? -Allen

[SUBE555]

On 18" Spec B performance handling setup? I don't exactly buy that reasoning.

[gurpman]

Oh, you're saying same tires but wider rims. Gotcha. Good question, don't know the answer!

[apexjapan2]

In short, larger diameter = larger longtitudinal contact patch. So you do get some benefits there. With the stiffness of the full monty 050s, the improvement is marked IMHO. I won't argue on size, and the convenience or availability of tyres in that size. IMHO you pay to play. No quarters means you are a spectator in this world. We already know that 225/45s will fit. 235s may also. As for spreading the sidewalls a bit, that certainly offers some handling benefit too IMHO (I'm running 215/45s on 17x7.5, so I would say that :wink: ). Things get tighter, less sidewall flex, a touch wider contact patch etc. Personally I'd go for 225/45 to get the extra width and length of contact patch if I could :twisted: Same if I had a spec B :D

[gtguy]

I think that Subaru has also figured out that grip is a function of suspension tuning and car balance, not tire/wheel width. Also, AWD changes the equation. You can see rear-wheel-drive cars, and the logic of having something wider at the rear for initial launch, and because the rears are being driven. The traction characteristics of AWD generally, given the same tire, mean more grip at all times because the system and suspension are working, which means you just don't need that wide of a tire. With 215-45-17 Dunlop 9000s, which isn't even an "ultimate grip" tire, on my WRX wagon, the way my suspension is set up, there is more grip than I could ever, ever need. That car isn't going anywhere! :lol: But, a narrower wheel does, as someone said above, yield lower rolling resistance and better gas mileage. It might not look as cool, but don't think that Subaru's way, given a proper car setup, is less effective. The other thing is ride quality. Subaru is relatively new (in the USDM) to this performance car thing. Subarus are still thought of here as rather rugged and all, where if you see a pothole or frost heave, no worries. An 18" combo changes the ride quality to a degree where suddenly, it's an issue. Could they offer 18s as an option? Sure, but given that only about four people opted for the 17" BBS package that was offered for the WRX, I'm sure they're rather leery about offering an expensive wheel option. I know, the BBS package was expensive, but that was what the wheels were worth. They were light, strong, forged 17s in a world of cheap aftermarket options such as Rota. So the most excellent BBS wheels went begging, but it cost Subaru money to provide that option. I know, Sube, I know...you aren't listening to me. :lol: But I didn't mention weight at all! :lol: (well, except to say that I didn't mention it). Kevin

[apexjapan2]

[quote name='gtguy']With 215-45-17 Dunlop 9000s, which isn't even an "ultimate grip" tire, on my WRX wagon, the way my suspension is set up, there is more grip than I could ever, ever need. That car isn't going anywhere! :lol: Kevin[/quote] Kevin, just a clarifing post really :wink: He means is not going anywhere he doesn't point it/intend it to :D Cheers :)

[SUBE555]

Kevin, my biggest gripe isn't necessarily with the tires themselves, it's that 1/2" of rim width which is the difference between a sale and not. The stock tire width is perfectly fine, but getting new ones will run you greater than a grand in general for, I think virtually the only selection were Goodyears or something off Ferrari's, so yeah, they're gonna be expensive. I'm just saying that 7.5" wheels would fit with the same tires, but the 7" is a big turn-off (same as 6.5's on the WRX IMO) for those looking down the road already to their next set of tires. I'm not saying that the selected tire size was necessarily bad, but the lack of tire options when those burn up are both nil and inherently expensive for what you get. Hmm, $200+/tire for whatever you get in the OE size or $135 ECSTA MX's in the 225/40R-18, I can see the better value. The 7.5" just would have given a lot more options for replacement. Just like not every STi owners will get a set of Brembo pads when theirs wear out if you know what I mean. ;)

[gtguy]

Oh, wait...I just realized that we're discussing a wheel that we don't have. What could I have been thinking? :lol: Spec B wheels? What? Kevin

[apexjapan2]

:lol: That'll do :wink:

[SUBE555]

Kevin, it's not like bumpers, a safety thing. I'm not complaining we don't have them, because they can be had. Monovich had them a while back on his BG GT Wagon. Getting them isn't the big issue. I was just wondering what the true logic is behind the newer narrower wheels like those of the WRX and even the Spec B's. The RS had wider wheels which when comparing both RE92's on a 6.5 and a 7 felt a little more surefooted on 7" rims IMO. Cost saving measure? Perhaps a bit. Does it limit options of certain things (like OE 4-pots with std WRX wheels), sure it does. Now that they are more widely available, people have to buy different wheels just to use them, costing a good bit more again. I just find them cutting ever so slight corners which could cut into their aftermarket potential a little bit. Personally, I'd rather get something from the OEM such as STi parts if possible, like Kevin has. Simple things like this make you think, well I have to go with larger wheels, why not go 17, well I can track more, why don't I go with stoptechs now... That sort of thing tracks some cash away from the OE when if the wheels on the WRX for instance were big enough, I'd just get a set of STi 4-pots and call it a day. I don't know, maybe I'm talking to the trees, or thinking out loud, but it just doesn't make logic to go one step forward and 2 steps back (the prev RS was one step forward, offering new products now but needing to change 2 things instead of just one now is the 2 steps back.) I think they'd actually sell the Spec B wheels if they marketed them here to buyers (they aren't BBS, so they wouldn't be $3k, but perhaps slightly more than the cast 17's currently for the WRX.) I feel they are one of the best looking designs out there (17 or 18" size), but if tires to replace them down the road are so inherently expensive that it would be like buying 2-3 sets of a size that would have been possible if the wheel was alightly wider (1/2" is marginal in cost if you ask me and I'd soak up the few extra bucks), it's more of an offset than it's worth IMO. Rant/rave, whatever off. Kevin, could you assimilate to the topic at hand instead of the tire size necessarily in itself and address that. We've hit that a number of times.

[Sub-attraction]

Why narrower wheels...I have no idea. I do like the Spec B wheels though but, as Sube pointed out, the limited and expensive tire replacements would sure make me think twice before opting for them. IF they were an option that is.

[gtguy]

I just am not into vaporware, Sube...I'll leave you all to it. Kevin

[PPower]

[quote name='gtguy']I just am not into vaporware, Sube...I'll leave you all to it. Kevin[/quote] No need to post then. :roll:

[gtguy]

[quote name='PPower'][quote name='gtguy']I just am not into vaporware, Sube...I'll leave you all to it. Kevin[/quote] No need to post then. :roll:[/quote] What's wrong with a statement of intent? We have seen all variety of "useless," eye-roll-inspiring posts on this space, from various people. What makes mine so out of order? What's the matter with this place lately? I could very well argue about the useless of your post, pointing to the uselessness of my post. It's a circular argument, and where does it end? Kevin

[SUBE555]

[quote name='gtguy']I just am not into vaporware...[/quote] Nice copout. ;) (Is that better than a rolleyes?) I started this thread to talk about wheel width and why I thought it might be benficial for a slightly wider wheel, I said NOTHING about the stock tire size as being not good at all. I was just commenting about how purchasing those wheels play a factor in future tire replacement and decision in buying what I feel is one of the best looking designs for the new Legacy. As per them being vaporware, I'm not sure that's quite accurate in the overall sense as people can already get their hands on them. If vendors can get their hands on the cast 'world' STi wheels, are those then vaporware as well, I wouldn't consider them to be. Wheels aren't like an entire new model coming out, that we just don't know spec on until they're here, those wheels have been out about a year now. Heck, here is Monovich's GT Wagon with them on... [img]http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/Monovich1.jpg[/img] I know you like playing devil's advocate to a lot of things Kevin, but I was just trying to spur some thoughts while we wait here about a part that is possible to get, and even talk about the lessening in size from the GC/GM RS wheels to the narrower GD/GG chassis std wheels on MY02+ RS's and WRX's. Your comments were further based on the opposite aspect of the conversation, tires and grip, not the wheels themselves. I just wanted a decent discussion about wheel width. :|

[gtguy]

It isn't a copout, and I don't consider offering an alternative response or way of looking at things playing Devil's advocate, which more accurately describes a situation in which someone counterargues a point for the simple sake of argument. I am also fully cognizant of the fact that I am considered (or dismissed as, as you wish) the "whiny old man" around here, because I often don't play along. That's fine. I can live with that. But the question, "why narrow wheels" was posited. My answer, based on the supposition that wheel width isn't a simple consideration of tire expense, but also grip and chassis balance was dismissed. At that point, given the general propensity of message boards to argue right past any contention that doesn't support the original one, as in "Yeah, why DOES Subaru use such narrow wheels? Hopefully, they'll change," I decided to withdraw from the discussion. I know that people like the visual bling of wide rubber and 18" wheels. Why not? Never mind the admittedly flawed, but still useful SCC wheel/tire test that took the same wheel/tire in 16, 17 and 18-inch sizes, and ran skidpad, 0-60 and track laps. The 18 just didn't do very well, being slowest 0-60 and worst on the skidpad, and very marginally faster on the track. The 17 turned out to be the best all-around performer. But AWD, of necessity, changes the equation, particularly in the passenger car and gas mileage context, as stated in my original answer. People are stuffing 235s under the fenders of their WRXes, and convincing themselves that the car has "lots more traction, yo." :lol: They won't want to get on a skidpad and find the real answer, because just having those wide tires makes them think the car has more grip, whether it does or doesn't. It might, but only marginally. Subaru is going to 17x8 on the STi for 2005, I would guess for no other reason than Mitsubishi has a 17x8 on the Evo. Arguments could be made that a wider wheel will support the tire better, but a 7.5" wheel is pretty close to perfect for a 225-wide tire. But the 8-inch wheel keeps them up with the Joneses, or more appropriately, the Mitsubishis. Kevin

[Subaru-aholic]

Considering Subaru's worldwide claim to performance fame is in WRC competition, it should come as no surprise that they choose to outfit even their performance-oriented models (WRX, WRX STi, 2.5GT) with comparatively narrow tires. Without getting into serious off-road tires (like the ones on Pike's Peak hill climb cars), the best way to provide superior all-weather, all-road traction is by using narrow(er) tires. For example, a bicycle tire won't hydroplane in a puddle, but a Corvette tire will. Another (albeit fairly ridiculous) example: Is it easier to chop through water (or snow) with the narrow edge of a paddle or the broad side of a paddle? While we all want the utmost in performance, Subaru is also concerned with providing the utmost in all-weather, all-road safety, which I can certainly appreciate. (Also, being Canadian, I am far more used to inclement weather than some of my neighbours to the south) Cheers.

[SUBE555]

If you read the initial statements, it wasn't about tires.

[SC GT]

[quote name='Subaru-aholic']Considering Subaru's worldwide claim to performance fame is in WRC competition, it should come as no surprise that they choose to outfit even their performance-oriented models (WRX, WRX STi, 2.5GT) with comparatively narrow tires. Without getting into serious off-road tires (like the ones on Pike's Peak hill climb cars), the best way to provide superior all-weather, all-road traction is by using narrow(er) tires. For example, a bicycle tire won't hydroplane in a puddle, but a Corvette tire will. Another (albeit fairly ridiculous) example: Is it easier to chop through water (or snow) with the narrow edge of a paddle or the broad side of a paddle? While we all want the utmost in performance, Subaru is also concerned with providing the utmost in all-weather, all-road safety, which I can certainly appreciate. (Also, being Canadian, I am far more used to inclement weather than some of my neighbours to the south) Cheers.[/quote] I guess the next question then is, do the Spec B's get M&S tires or performance summer tires? I also thought that the 18 X 7 size was weird from the moment I read about it. I don't ever recall seeing a 18 X 7 option in after market rims.

[SUBE555]

I believe the 050's are summer only. I also don't recall of seeing any aftermarket wheels that narrow. Just not much for tire selection in that size.

[agctr]

A lot owners in Oz keep the original 17" Rims on the WRX's and upgrade once the tread has started to wear. My sister has a MY02 WRX and more or less ripped the stock rims off as soon as she bought it. She is currently running 19" rims with spacers to give the car a better stance. She has kept the 17" and placed road/track tires on these for when she uses the car for drifting. Earlier this week, I was sitting behind a MY03 WRX with the original rolling stock, and yes I do agree, they look very small and out of place.