jim1969 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Which would be the best to improve the handling of my 2005 Legacy GT sedan? I've seen the write ups on both but am unsure which is the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 What handling do you want to improve. Oversteer? Understeer? Less roll?? Dampening??? OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 the two parts you are asking do different things to the car. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1969 Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 I feel it leans too much in a turn. I would also like to minimize the understeer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWortham Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 A stronger rear anti-sway bar would be an easy way to reduce understeer / increase oversteer. The sway bars will make a huge improvement in reducing lean without devastating overall ride quality -- which makes them one of the car industry's favorite suspension tuning devices. I'd do that first, and depending on your tastes you may or may not want to continue suspension upgrades. Oh, and as for stronger front anti-sway bars... they'll increase understeer. So any upgrades here should be used in moderation if your end goal is to have more oversteer than stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4_Maniac Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 and understeer it does.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim1969 Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 so for me a guess the rear anti-sway bar is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 sway bars only work if the tires are still touching the ground firmly. From my experience with this car in stock form, the springs are fine, it's the shocks that may need some help. You can try out the bigger sway bar in the rear, but it will still want to lean because the combination of the shock and springs in the rear do not give the car enough of the initial feedback to keep the car from leaning. Anyways, my bottom line is that if you want to take out some understeer, a good front end alignment would probably be a good choice more so than the rear sway bar addition/change.. this way, you dont ADD more oversteer, instead, you can maximize the grip of the car before it starts to understeer. How/What to get for a front wheel alignment? Get a custom one with maximum negative camber that the car will allow, (probably anywhere from -.7 to -1.0 and toe-out by 1/16"). Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWortham Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 ^ Major changes to the front-end alignment can adversely affect the behavior on the streets. More negative camber up front will increase the tramlining effect. More toe out up front will create a less stable / more anxious feel on the highway. On top of that, braking in a straight line will feel less natural, and you'll have increased tire wear. It will, however, substantially improve the handling dynamics of the car. Just be careful not to do anything too extreme to your daily driver, or all these little differences will start to get to you. As for the rear anti-sway bar... I haven't done much research on specific examples for Subaru's, but you may also want to adjust the rear camber after adding a rear anti-sway bar. This is because the resistance to roll in the rear can increase the chances of snap oversteer in a panic situation. Snap oversteer can be very dangerous on public streets since the rear end can literally snap around, take you off guard, and it'll be very difficult to recover. It's most often induced by turning while braking. Adding some negative camber in the rear can make all the difference in obtaining a little more balance and rear grip to help prevent this from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 How about starting simple....new tires??? OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWortham Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Heheh... good tires will make a huge improvement. :D I'm kinda comparing two different animals here, but I found the upgraded rear sway bar to be a very practical & worthwhile upgrade to my Hyundai. It made more of an improvement than the lowering springs & struts combined. But nothing beats a good set of tires with stiff sidewalls. I say get both tires and the sway bar. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 [quote name='SWortham']^ Major changes to the front-end alignment can adversely affect the behavior on the streets. More negative camber up front will increase the tramlining effect. More toe out up front will create a less stable / more anxious feel on the highway. On top of that, braking in a straight line will feel less natural, and you'll have increased tire wear. It will, however, substantially improve the handling dynamics of the car. Just be careful not to do anything too extreme to your daily driver, or all these little differences will start to get to you. As for the rear anti-sway bar... I haven't done much research on specific examples for Subaru's, but you may also want to adjust the rear camber after adding a rear anti-sway bar. This is because the resistance to roll in the rear can increase the chances of snap oversteer in a panic situation. Snap oversteer can be very dangerous on public streets since the rear end can literally snap around, take you off guard, and it'll be very difficult to recover. It's most often induced by turning while braking. Adding some negative camber in the rear can make all the difference in obtaining a little more balance and rear grip to help prevent this from happening.[/QUOTE] It's not as bad as you think as I drive with such numbers on my GT for daily driving.. and I am very happy with it.. a 1/16th toe out and -0.7 degrees isnt going to eat away your tires.. just make sure you rotate your tires every oil change and you are fine. There are two choices so far for a rear sway bar that I know. Cusco's Vacanza is an adjustable sway rear sway measured at 21mm (it can adjust to a "23mm" bar par se). You can get the JDM B4 Legacy rear sway which is 19mm. Usually, the larger the sway bar, the more dramatic the oversteering effect will come into play. I dont know what Perrin, Whiteline, or any other JDM company (such as Zerosports, PRS, etc) offers in sizing, but I dont think it's anything bigger than a 25 or 26mm. Just to let everyone know, camber is not adjustable in the rear as it's a multilink suspension, so you will need adjustable links (like the WRX that Cusco offers that lengthens or shorten the rods) to make toe-in/out and camber changes. They will look something like this: Cusco for WRX [img]http://www.maz-sport.com/cusco/pillow_ball_images/e_lateral.jpg[/img] JIC Magic for WRX [img]http://www.jic-magic.com/images/suspension/armrod/rear-adjustable-lower-link.jpg[/img] As I said before, just a small front end alignment would be the most cost effective way to make the car perform without having to worry about adding more oversteering effect via larger rear sway. Unless you are an avid driver that is smooth and know how to feel for neutral steering from the seat of your pants, start with an alignment first.. then you can go with tires if you need some better grip improvement. Springs and sway bars is pretty much of a large step in performance, especially when you are not expecting or not know what these mods do in the first place. Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 I'll let ya know about the perrin in a week or so. Have them commin for the front and the rear. :) OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWortham Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Well... you can go for the alignment if you want... maybe that setup is more livable than the adjustments I made with my car. I went through 4 different custom alignments before I finally settled on an alignment with stock toe and slight alterations of the camber. My impressions after the experience I had with sway bars has made me put more value on them than most other suspension modifications. The change is fairly simple as there is no change in ride height or suspension geometry. The installation can be easily done yourself with simple tools. I guess the lack of camber adjustment in the rear is a bit of a roadblock though. If you're at all concerned about the snap oversteer problem I mentioned, you'll have to spend more money on a kit which will give the ability to adjust the camber. And you'll still have to pay for a professional alignment to do that properly, unless you're ambitious enough to string the car and do the alignment yourself. I don't know, I still think it would be worth it but that's just me. And maybe the car just doesn't need it as bad as I would think. I need to buy one to answer these questions for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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