OPINIONS on CUSCO front and rear lower arm bars for wagon

[lisn2me2]

for 2005 gt wagon is it worth the 179 per pair for the difference it will make other suspension mods will be front and rear end links, rear sway bar(20mm), stock height thanks James

[Xenonk]

Do other mods first... every mod does a little bit of everything differently. Keefe

[MtnSub]

Previous posts by gtguy commented that based on past WRX/Sti experience, reducing size of front sway may be the right mod versus adding bigger rear sway. Even though a bigger rear sway creates similar size relationship to reducing front sway, it seems that result would feel different. Not sure what objective you want to achieve or how you plan to use your car (street/track)? Might be worth looking up Xenonk and gtguy posts on sway bars and suspension mods. I pick up my new Leg GT wagon this Saturday and my 18x7.5 Prodrive wheels and Toyo Proxie 4s (225/40/18) will be on by Tuesday, as my first mod. Jan/Feb I will put PINK Sti springs on to reduce floaty and then I will wait to see if I really want any more cornering help. By then, I bet we will much more real world experience with bars and I will know my car better. This car stock has limits beyond my driving skill and street level, so it is all a matter of "feel" and "fun" driving for me. I would also be interested in actual experience with Leg GT/wagon, as you requested.

[gtguy]

Ahem... [url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5656[/url] Kevin

[Xenonk]

[quote name='MtnSub']Previous posts by gtguy commented that based on past WRX/Sti experience, reducing size of front sway may be the right mod versus adding bigger rear sway. Even though a bigger rear sway creates similar size relationship to reducing front sway, it seems that result would feel different. Not sure what objective you want to achieve or how you plan to use your car (street/track)? Might be worth looking up Xenonk and gtguy posts on sway bars and suspension mods.[/QUOTE] Yes, there is a difference.. when you "downsize" a bar, you are not only changing the relationship of the bars, but you are also giving the car more room or time to react to the inputs. Bigger and stiffer bars will give a faster reaction to the whole car. So when you reduce a size (like what GTGUY is saying) this will allow the rear end to still come alive, but at least the car wont snap back into place as fast if you had a larger bars for both front and rear. It's also the same principle with tires.. the less air you have in them (softer) the less they will react to the changes in steering (aka the "play" in the steering). But when you inflate the tires to something like a rock hard pressure, you'll feel like you are driving on the rims themselves (the sidewalls are soo hard that that your steering input is losing less translated energy from the steering input). There are ways to go about making the car handle the way you want, and you dont have to buy every upgrade there is in order to do that. Sometimes taking things out of the car helps more (and it is a very common practice to take stuff out of the car to make it perform better.. aka weight reduction or emptying out the car from all the deadweight that you dont need). I keep my car very empty inside, while my friends love to pack their cars up as if they live out of their car. Keefe

[Rommel]

[quote name='MtnSub']Previous posts by gtguy commented that based on past WRX/Sti experience, reducing size of front sway may be the right mod versus adding bigger rear sway. Even though a bigger rear sway creates similar size relationship to reducing front sway, it seems that result would feel different. Not sure what objective you want to achieve or how you plan to use your car (street/track)? Might be worth looking up Xenonk and gtguy posts on sway bars and suspension mods. I pick up my new Leg GT wagon this Saturday and my 18x7.5 Prodrive wheels and Toyo Proxie 4s (225/40/18) will be on by Tuesday, as my first mod. Jan/Feb I will put PINK Sti springs on to reduce floaty and then I will wait to see if I really want any more cornering help. By then, I bet we will much more real world experience with bars and I will know my car better. This car stock has limits beyond my driving skill and street level, so it is all a matter of "feel" and "fun" driving for me. I would also be interested in actual experience with Leg GT/wagon, as you requested.[/QUOTE] I'm in the L.A. area if you want to feel how a car handles with STi Pink springs and 18x7.5 wheels let me know, that is what I have right now.

[Guest turboman]

[quote name='lisn2me2']for 2005 gt wagon is it worth the 179 per pair for the difference it will make other suspension mods will be front and rear end links, rear sway bar(20mm), stock height thanks James[/QUOTE] Exactly what my plans are, with the addition of urethane sway bar bushings with a zerk fitting (prevents future squeaks) and a grease channel. The bigger rear bar eliminates the need for a bigger front bar. And I personally don't feel any chassis reinforcements are necessary (upper or lower, front or rear). The 2005 body "tub" has been re-engineered for additional "crash" protection and is considerably stronger than the models before. Maybe, if you are running super sticky race type tires at formal "track days", or slaloming a lot.

[Xenonk]

[quote name='turboman']The bigger rear bar eliminates the need for a bigger front bar. And I personally don't feel any chassis reinforcements are necessary (upper or lower, front or rear). The 2005 body "tub" has been re-engineered for additional "crash" protection and is considerably stronger than the models before. Maybe, if you are running super sticky race type tires at formal "track days", or slaloming a lot.[/QUOTE] It really depends on what you want to do with the car. I wouldnt be fixed on having a larger rear because the car in stock form can swing the rear around more so than you think. A larger front sway would be a good thing to have if the driver has a tendenacy to drive a car harder than what it can handle for exit-corners. This raises the limit of adhesion, but it really easy to exceed it if you push any car too hard. Keefe

[Autophysics]

Kevin's post describes noticeable handling changes during daily driving as a result of adding the Cusco front lower brace to the chassis. I am awaiting both the front and rear lower braces and will see what the combined effect is. As you stiffen the springs and shocks, the benefits of chassis strengthening increase, since the stiffer springs and shocks cause more chassis flex, even in normal daily driving.

[Guest turboman]

[quote name='Xenonk']It really depends on what you want to do with the car. I wouldnt be fixed on having a larger rear because the car in stock form can swing the rear around more so than you think. A larger front sway would be a good thing to have if the driver has a tendenacy to drive a car harder than what it can handle for exit-corners. This raises the limit of adhesion, but it really easy to exceed it if you push any car too hard. Keefe[/QUOTE] You can do the same thing with tire pressures. A larger front bar is the last thing I need because I want controlled oversteer. Normally I will left foot brake at the same times as right foot throttle and I want the tail to come around. Not for the car to plow off the course or over the embankment alongside the entrance ramp. Since I started running solos in the 1960's I've formed some fairly effective principles that adapt to my driving technique and which particular car/tires I'm running that year (30+ cars, frt. drive, rear drive, and AWD).

[Xenonk]

There's also a fine line with tire pressures as well because too much of it will decrease your contact patch and also change the characteristics of cornering (think camber and scrub radius). You can still have controlled oversteer, it's for the driver to make use of that portion of control. There are ways to induce oversteer, if left foot braking is your choice, that's perfectly fine. I just end up using lift-throttle steer (save myself some brakes in the process anyways). Since the car is AWD, the torque is more noticeable when you let off the throttle and the back end will start to swing anyways, this happens more when you use a lower gear. I am not too worried about maintaining boost for the car especially for public driving. Keefe

[Guest turboman]

In all honesty, the WRX was one of the cars I could never get myself to keep on the gas at the same time as I'm braking. When I got the car I was in my 60's and my reactions weren't what they had been. Left foot braking is best done on front drive cars. It worked terrific on a Omni GLH turbo and a Rabbit GTI. Took SCCA Central Division class championships a couple of years in a Pantera and a Rabbit. Events on a road course are a whole different ball game. With the WRX one has to train yourself to brake earlier and hit the throttle before the apex and hold it down all the way around the corner. Its too slow to use trailing throttle oversteer because you're losing too much time when you're OFF throttle waiting for the tail to swing (VERY IMPORTANT SENTENCE). Fastest drivers are either maximum braking or maximum throttle the greatest percentage of the course.. Nothing is gained lifting your foot and waiting for the tail to come around. ....anyway. Opinions are what makes horse racing. Or was it car racing. Had the LGT wagon out in the snow today. Found some dry road. God, that car is faster than the WRX. First gear is just a momentary load roar and its over. It hits 6000 before I can shift if I'm not attentive. Would have loved to autoX this car. But I'm out for post heart attack w/complications reasons. It was, and still is, a great life. I envy you young bucks...

[Xenonk]

Mike Cole does it all the time in the STi to claim 1st in ESP for Solo 2 in the SCCA-WDCR region.. it's a common practice for him. Smoother inputs and not driving the piss out of the tires is somethiing I have come to learn when it comes to driving in SCCA Solo2 racing, and I have truely honor the notion of lift-throttle steering (it's harder for the car to gain back speed from over-braking a turn aka slowing down way too much). I only use the brakes to scrape off the majority part of the braking to allow 100% tire grip through an entire turn. Heck, doing tear drops u-turns off a slalom will show that you get a lot of rotation out of the car just by lifting the throttle and swing the car around.. the car will already scrub some speed off from turning anyways, why need to trail anymore braking if you are slow going in? ;) Average top speed will match to your best times from my experience ;) Keefe

[Guest turboman]

Everything you say is true to a certain extent. That's the kicker. The only way to know which methods is faster is to run mirror courses with the same driver and car on both courses. Obviously impossible. So what I used to do run against an imaginary opponent with a known lap time. A car can stop consideralby faster than it can accelerate (ft/per/sec/per/sec) You know that "G-Loading forcing you to stand up in the harness when you're hard on the brakes" (more time spent in this high G-load braking mode enables more time that can be spent in accelerating mode (which moves you further down the curse). Obviously that strategy requires walking and planning the course to give as many sraight line MAX brakings as possible, as well as, as many MAX accelerating straightaway as possible. When your car is at the apex in a light braking state waiting for the tail to come around far enough, your imaginary competitor has completed his MAXIMUM EFFORT braking before the apex and has spent about 2 seconds under MAX acceleration and he is about 2-3 car lengths farther around the course. After EVERY sharp corner (over 45 degrees). My esteemed mentor was E.Paul Dickinson, A-Stock National Champ 5 or 6 times from, I believe, 1972-76 (check the records in the back of the SCCA rules book, I don't have one anymore) , in a brown Porche 911S. He started the "Dickinson School of high speed driving" in S. Carolina. Taught soloists and he had a contract to train the State Police in high speed driving. Only 5-6 students to a 4 day class. Plenty of "seat time". I attended in a slightly modified BMW 530i. Learned a lot of good stuff. Got lap times until I was sick of it and balded the new tires. By the way. through a stroke of a pylon, I beat him in 1974 Central Division Midwest Championships at Lake Geneva Speedway in my Pantera. Sheer luck. He rocked and displaced a pylon on his last run. But, who am I, a lowly Junior Member, to be spouting off to far more experienced soloists. Todays tires and cars are far, far superior to those of my time and techniques had to change. If you get a chance look in "GOOGLE" under "Jim Pagel, slalom". ...interesting sparring with you. Jim Pagel ;)