SEMA: Stoptech X 2005 Subaru Legacy GT

[SFGR415]

I just got back from SEMA 2004 and was mainly checking out products for the new Legacy's. I am aware that COBB and I believe Endless make BBK's but I would prefer a kit like Stoptech or Brembo. I talked to the guys at Stoptech and they said that right now they are not sure if they are going to produce a BBK for the Legacy even though some of the employees are personally pulling for it. They said the best thing we can do is call them or email them and show them that there is a interest for a BBK from them. What doesn't make sense is that BBK manafacturers make a BBK for a Chrysler 300C yet they wont make one for a semi-performance oriented sedan. Well, I guess they make em for the 300C due to the bling factor. Did anyone that attended SEMA see the chop top West Coast Customs 2 door 300C?

[gtguy]

BBKs are bling factor, period, unless you are building a dedicated track car. Tires stop the car. The Legacy GT already has enough braking power to lock the wheels, which means that you don't need more brake. Do BBKs look cool? Yep. Do they make a significant difference in stopping distance? Nope. At a track day, they will have better fade resistance than a stock brake setup, but duh. So upgrade pads and fluid, and track your GT all day. What fascinates me is that the same questions that came with the WRX, are coming with the Legacy GT, as if that car would somehow be different. Strut tower bars, BBKs, grounding mods, etc, etc, are cool, but essentially worthless for a street-driven car. Kevin

[Timmayy]

While I agree with the idea that most BBK's are better at looking cool than improving braking performance, I have to disagree with your claim that no car benefits from bigger brakes. My WRX had more than enough brakes to lock the wheels, but I will assure you that my STi had SIGNIFICANTLY better brakes, which were also much larger in diameter than stock WRX brakes, with both cars using the same tire size, and the WRX actually having better tires than the stock STi. It's more swept area and larger pads. It is true that most BBK installations do very little to help a primarily street driven car because they are rarely engineered to work with the other components in the braking system, and as a result brake performance suffers, but to say that the tires are the only thing that will improve your braking performance is simply wrong. I also take exception to the statement that any other suspension enhancements are "worthless" on the street. I had a '98 Integra GSR on which I installed front and rear strut tower braces, and they helped sharpen the handling quite noticably. It was confirmed when I removed them to turn the car in when the lease was up, and the car felt "flabby". With regard to the Legacy, I believe the brakes could use some improvement, but I will be looking at braided lines and different pads, rather than a BBK, despite how cool they look. I personally can't justify 4-5 grand on somthing that will likely give me inconsistent, if not nonexistant, ABS performance. You can look at COBB's website for info on the new Legacy BBK. I thought Trey said that Stoptech was doing the kit for them, maybe I'm mistaken. -Tim

[gtguy]

[quote name='Timmayy']While I agree with the idea that most BBK's are better at looking cool than improving braking performance, I have to disagree with your claim that no car benefits from bigger brakes. My WRX had more than enough brakes to lock the wheels, but I will assure you that my STi had SIGNIFICANTLY better brakes, which were also much larger in diameter than stock WRX brakes, with both cars using the same tire size, and the WRX actually having better tires than the stock STi. It's more swept area and larger pads. It is true that most BBK installations do very little to help a primarily street driven car because they are rarely engineered to work with the other components in the braking system, and as a result brake performance suffers, but to say that the tires are the only thing that will improve your braking performance is simply wrong. I also take exception to the statement that any other suspension enhancements are "worthless" on the street. I had a '98 Integra GSR on which I installed front and rear strut tower braces, and they helped sharpen the handling quite noticably. It was confirmed when I removed them to turn the car in when the lease was up, and the car felt "flabby". With regard to the Legacy, I believe the brakes could use some improvement, but I will be looking at braided lines and different pads, rather than a BBK, despite how cool they look. I personally can't justify 4-5 grand on somthing that will likely give me inconsistent, if not nonexistant, ABS performance. You can look at COBB's website for info on the new Legacy BBK. I thought Trey said that Stoptech was doing the kit for them, maybe I'm mistaken. -Tim[/QUOTE] Regarding your WRX to your STi, without the same tire and pad compound, braking performance observations are all but worthless. Don't forget that the STi has pretty "awful" tested braking distances, just like the Legacy GT. :lol: As you yourself posted, without designing them as part of the car, BBKs make hardly any difference. Car & Driver found as much with their test of BBKs, one that included a WRX with the Prodrive big brake kit. Tires stop the car. A Hyundai with R-compounds will outbrake an STi. Is brake torque a component of effective braking? Yep. And rare is the car that doesn't have enough rotor to apply sufficient torque to lock the wheels/set off the ABS. And take exception all you want, but strut tower braces cannot improve handling. As I always say about them, if you believe, they do, then they do, and what else matters. Kevin

[KitW]

You are missing something pretty critical. Hit the brakes at 80 mph. You're not going to engage ABS at 80. (I tried) Lots of times 80-30 mph stopping distances can significantly improve with a BBK, and increase safety on the road, in addition to giving much more fade resistance on the track. I think the Legacy GT brakes have really lousy bite. the pedal is pretty mushy, too. My other car's stock brakes felt much better and now that I have a bbk on it, I hate getting back into the legacy because it feels like I'm going to fly through intersections. (the s2000 has 13" rotors with 6 piston wilwood calipers)

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='KitW']You are missing something pretty critical. Hit the brakes at 80 mph. You're not going to engage ABS at 80. (I tried) [/QUOTE] There must be something wrong with your brakes

[KitW]

Come on, give me a break. Try it. Pull your ABS fuse and try to lock up the brakes at 80mph. The rears will give a squeak and the fronts lock up later as the car slows down... but not at 80mph.

[NewScooby]

I have tried it, 3 times on a row from 80 to 10 mph abs engaged the whole time with black marks all over the road! I dont like the feel of the LGT's brakes, but with the stock RE92's I can set off the abs at 80 mph every time I mash the brakes. I agree with Timmayy on the Strut tower bracing. chassis stiffening is never a bad thing. I will be getting some because my last car, creaked and rattled and felt much looser that my friends identical car(Camaro Z28)with a Strut tower brace and subframe connectors. To each his own I guess!:D

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='KitW']Come on, give me a break. Try it. Pull your ABS fuse and try to lock up the brakes at 80mph. The rears will give a squeak and the fronts lock up later as the car slows down... but not at 80mph.[/QUOTE] Are your rotors bedded and broken in? I need to stand on it hard, that's about it. Not as much boost as I'd suppose most people would want.

[highwaydrifter]

[quote name='gtguy']Regarding your WRX to your STi, without the same tire and pad compound, braking performance observations are all but worthless. Don't forget that the STi has pretty "awful" tested braking distances, just like the Legacy GT. :lol: As you yourself posted, without designing them as part of the car, BBKs make hardly any difference. [b]Car & Driver found[/b] as much with their test of BBKs, one that included a WRX with the Prodrive big brake kit. Tires stop the car. A Hyundai with R-compounds will outbrake an STi. Is brake torque a component of effective braking? Yep. And rare is the car that doesn't have enough rotor to apply sufficient torque to lock the wheels/set off the ABS. And take exception all you want, but strut tower braces cannot improve handling. As I always say about them, if you believe, they do, then they do, and what else matters. Kevin[/QUOTE] Ahhh magazine racing at its best.... BBK was a NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE on my wrx.. same tires, same rims hell even the same axxis ultimates (and even stock pads after those).. maybe stoping from 10-0 was the same but in the real world where people who dont know how to drive swerve in front of you and 70-0 stops are frequent more pad to rotor friction area bleeds off speed faster... Dont know what your hard on for BBK's are but until you drive a car with them on aggresivly you will never know the difference.. Maybe you just drive like a pansy.. :) haha that is sure to piss you off.. haha dont mean it in a rude way but just trying to be honest with ya..

[Xenonk]

[quote name='KitW']You are missing something pretty critical. Hit the brakes at 80 mph. You're not going to engage ABS at 80. (I tried) Lots of times 80-30 mph stopping distances can significantly improve with a BBK, and increase safety on the road, in addition to giving much more fade resistance on the track. [/QUOTE] Are you standing on the brakes?!? It will come on if you stand on them.. TRUST ME ON THAT! ;) I have plenty of good tires to make sure the brakes lock up. If anything, you should swap out your brake fluid.. I managed to boil my stock brake fluid all under 2 weeks with the car (2 autocrosses will do it). Keefe

[Timmayy]

[quote name='gtguy'] Don't forget that the STi has pretty "awful" tested braking distances, just like the Legacy GT. [/QUOTE]See below, from Road & Track's Best Car of 2004 test, which the STi won, btw. [b]Subaru Impreza WRX STi[/b] SpecificationsList price (MSRP)$30,995Engineturbo dohc 24V flat-4Displacement2457 ccHorsepower (SAE)300 bhp @ 6000 rpmTorque300 lb-ft @ 4000 rpmTransmission6-speed manualLayoutfront engine/all-wheel driveBrake system, f/r12.7-in. vented discs/ 12.3-in. vented discs, ABSWheels17 x 7 1/2 JJTiresBridgestone Potenza RE070, 225/45ZR-17Steering typerack & pinion, vari pwr asstSuspension, f/rMacPherson struts/strutsPerformanceAcceleration, 0–60 mph4.9 sec0–1320 ft (1/4 mile)13.3 sec @ 103.0 mph[b]Braking, 60–0 mph[/b][b]111 ft[/b][b]80–0 mph[/b][b]193 ft[/b]Lateral accel (200-ft skidpad)0.88gSpeed through 700-ft slalom68.4 mphEPA city/highway18/24 mpg [b]Porsche 911 GT3[/b] SpecificationsList price (MSRP)$99,900Enginedohc 24V flat-6Displacement3600 ccHorsepower (SAE)380 bhp @ 7400 rpmTorque285 lb-ft @ 5000 rpmTransmission6-speed manualLayoutrear engine/rear driveBrake system, f/r13.8-in. vented discs/ 13.0-in. vented discs, ABSWheels18 x 8 1/2 f, 18 x 11 rTiresMichelin Pilot Sport; 235/40ZR-18 f, 295/30ZR-18 rSteering typerack & pinion, vari pwr asstSuspension, f/rMacPherson struts/ multilinkPerformanceAcceleration, 0–60 mph4.2 sec0–1320 ft (1/4 mile)12.4 sec @ 113.8 mph[b]Braking, 60–0 mph[/b][b]119 ft[/b][b]80–0 mph[/b][b]207 ft[/b]Lateral accel (200-ft skidpad)0.92gSpeed through 700-ft slalom68.7 mphEPA city/highway15/23 mpg (Sorry, I cut and pasted this from their web page, but the formatting won't carry over.) I was going to counter your other statements with facts and data, but then I realized it just isn't worth my time. Besides, you're a mod, so you know all, right?