Tweeter placement clarification

[lucas569]

Does anyone have any pics of tweeters mounted in the kicks?

 

I have about 3/4 of my stereo project at my house waiting for installation but I'm still a little on the fence with the tweeters. I have no problem just mounting them in the stock kickpanel, but unfortunately I'm fairly positive that my tweeters dont have a swivel ability. Will this kill my soundstage if they are theoretically firing straight rather than angled upward?

 

Heres the gear I'm using...

RF 3Sixty.2

Elemental Designs 6500 components

Elemental Designs 13Ov.2 Subwoofer

Elemental Designs Nine.5 amp

Raammat Deadening

 

OH BABY.

 

those eD look alot like cdt for some reason

 

but anyhow, not sure what mounting cups come w/ the 6500's but i would try to angle them if possible.

 

the kicks are angled slightly, but try some angles w/ double sided tape and then mount em to your liking.

 

measure twice cut once!

[Powerman]

to minimize PLD

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61377

 

So I read that thread. So all you did was mount your seperate tweeter in the kick panel? Did you have to add anything to the kick panel? What about those "boxes" I see people mount down in the floor? Would it sound any better if they were mounted pointing to the driver instead of firing to the side like they are.

 

 

I just put my system together and am now looking at how I can make it better. The doors are dynamatted, and I have seperates in the stock location with coaxials in the rear. I want to instal my amps in the spare wheel location and maybe do something better with the front seperates.

[lucas569]

i didnt just mount, i played w/ angles and different spots for a good amount of time until i found the "sweet" spot.

 

even had to buy a new kick panel cause i didnt like the 1st spot that i thought i liked the 1st time!

 

the boxes you see are passive x-overs, those are to split the audio spectrum to the proper speakers.

 

high for tweets,low for midranges,etc....

 

trafiic cops for speakers

 

i didnt add anything to the kick (just a lil dynamt) as i only put my tweeters there, i did however cut some holes

 

if u were to add something more say some midranges you may have to reinforce w/ FG.

 

i plan on doing a 3-way front w/ some 3" mids in the kicks so stay tuned...

 

most of the aiming will have to do w/ how good or bad the speakers off axis responce is.

 

from my experience the cdt and eD speakers dont have good off axis responce, also its a very laid back speaker.

 

those do well aimed on axis.

 

my pioneer set has awesome off axis responce so aiming wasnt much of an issue.

[Powerman]

Well I just read a ton of posts and now I need to get back to work.

 

I know what crossovers are. The "boxes" I was talking about are kicker pods like 16psi makes. Of course, now I know what it takes to make them, or buy them.

 

I'm not sure about my tweets and how they will sound off axis. They are Focal polyglass. Obviously moving my tweets to the kicker panels are cheaper and easier than getting pods. I read MSMITH talk about how just moving them down to the mids in the door is good too. Don't know how much room I have down there. It is counter intuitive. You would think the tweets would be much better high on the door.

 

I read about reversing polarity. I want to give this a try. I ordered a Clean Sweep calibration disk and will be able to run some tests soon.

 

What I have is Focal poly fronts in stock location w/ the whole door dynamatted. Don't know if anything is "in" the door for sound proofing.

 

Focal coaxials in the rear w/ the whole door dynamatted.

 

JL Audio 300/4 w/ Clean sweep

 

JL 10W3 sealed with JBL 300.1

 

So now I want to see what I can tweek to get things sounding better. The sound quality is very good, but the imaging is non exsistent. After reading all these types of post it got me to thinking about tweeter location and polarity reversal.

[lucas569]

the polarity reversal worked wonders but i changed it soon as i had TA control (pioneer 880prs)

 

sorry about the xover explanation , i thought u talking about those..

 

those kick panel pods 16psibrick makes look awesome but theyre not for me, i have a mt and i know he said you get used to them but i already hit the kick panels like crazy....

 

my plans are to use a 3" dome mid along w/ some tweeters, should fit in the kick very nice and not take up room

 

focal makes very good speakers, all i can advise is to experiment w/ many spots, only you can determine what sounds good to your ears.

[Powerman]

It's not that I think the foot wells are cramped, but when I had a MT I was constantly hitting the kick panel/dead pedal thing. I never got used to it and never understood it either. Agrivating, really messed with my shifting. I have a AT now and am in no hurry to get rid of space down there.

 

Even without going with pods though, it wouldn't be too hard to mount tweeters in a benificial way down there. Plenty of room for that if they needed to be on axis.

 

As soon as I got into this little deal, I didn't understand why TA is not incorperated in the CS. It is so ho hum everyday stuff in home systems and it is needed more in a car. Are there any stand alone TA modules you can by for car audio?

 

 

If anyone else has any input I am all ears.

[CSTMIZR]

Hey Powerman,

 

Placing your tweets in the kicks is definately the way to go (no real need for three ways, nor pods, if done right).

 

I'm sure from your extensive research that you understand the concepts of TA (time alignment) and tweet directionality. So to elaborate a bit, the imaging you will get from the tweet in the kick will correct the TA issue considerably and when positioned properly will create the stage that you are looking for.The direction should be roughly between the driver's right ear and the passangers left ear (closer to the driver's right). Having the tweet as far away from the ear as possible allows the signal to disperse to a maximum, and with proper direction, to create the desired stage position.

 

Digital sound processing in auto audio has sort of gone the way of the dodo, and fallen to simpler forms of stage and sound adjustment. The reason TA is in homes and not so much in cars is that the environments are so different.

 

In a home you're alignment is done over feet of area, where in a car things are a lot closer (align within inches) and there are considerable obstructions (seats, you, etc.). So, its easier to align in an open area than a cramped one b/c there is so much greater a scale to work with. So auto audio companies don't readily include TA (except on higher-end models) b/c it is a "superfluous" addition in their eyes and most consumers don't know about it, nor do they have the equiptment to utilize it, or really care.

 

There are stand alone DSP/TA units on the market, but they are often waaay over tuned, and when used properly the actual settings will be in the 10-15% range.

Here's one from Pioneer that is for their decks only, but will give you an idea.

 

Pioneer DEQ-P8000 (only compatible w/ certain pioneer decks)

 

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069685_93768381,00.html

 

My suggestion to you is to go with the kick tweeter placement and phase reversal on the right midbass. Then make further additions/alterations after that (which if all goes well you shouldn't have to).

 

Hope that helps...........

[Powerman]

Thanks Lucas and CSTMIZR. Ordinarily I would research for months and figure out what I want. I always wanted good car audio, but it gets expensive. I have always found other toys to spend such money on. Right now even if I had $3K sitting around I would get a flat panel TV instead of a car stereo. However, since I bought this car 2/3s done, I figured why not put the rest together and have a jammin system?

 

So here I am with good components trying to firure out how to get the most out of them. You guys have helped a lot. Thanks

[lucas569]

imo the jl cs is a waste of $$$ (imo) its a great device but lacks some essential tuning tools.

 

for much less you can mount a great non discreet hu in the cubby hole... again its all personal taste. some people dont like the look of another deck there, heck my pioneer matches the colors of the white number near perfectly.

 

i can even turn off the display, some insist on the CS and if i were to go that route id add a ppi dcx-730 but thats just me... this tool gives all the tuning options you would need and then some...

Features

• 6-channel fully digital sound processing
  
• 24-bit digital signal processor (DSP) engine
  • 7-band fully parametric equalizer
    
  • Independent EQ settings for each channel
    
  • Fully variable 3-way crossover
    
  • Selectable 6, 12, 18, or 24 dB/octave crossover slopes
    
  • Variable 0-70 msec time alignment for each channel
    
  • Parametric Q BASS bass boost

  [*]Wired controller with blue backlight

  [*]2-line x 16-character LCD display

  [*]5 user presets

  [*]USB connection for PC updates

  [*]2-6 channels input/2-6 channels output

  [*]Fully configurable input-to-output mapping

  [*]Adjustable 250mV-12V input sensitivity

  [*]7.5V RMS preamp line driver

  [*]Remote turn-on with programmable delay

  [*]LED power & output clipping indicators

  [*]Includes in-dash trim ring

little overkill but thats how i am

 

alot of the obstacles can be overcome w/ a careful install and proper aiming, the rest is fanatical issues --------> me

[Powerman]

for much less you can mount a great non discreet hu in the cubby hole... again its all personal taste. some people dont like the look of another deck there, heck my pioneer matches the colors of the white number near perfectly.

 

 

Hey Buddy, I don't need that kind of input! I have seen the cubby hole/ head unit thing and the wheels are already turning. I don't need any instigating.:lol:

 

when I was at the store getting the sub we had to look into LOCs cause I have no line out. I nearly got a different processor. I have a very bad habit of escalating:lol: Right now I am just going with what I have. I am going to work on placement and tunning and see where that gets me. Hell, it isn't even my car! It is the wife's and she couldn't care less. I get to drive it every now and then. I been driving it a lot more since the sub instal;)

[lucas569]

a LOC? oh man im outta here!

[112 dB]

Path lengths should be as close together as possible, because your ears are mounted on the sides of your head.

 

In my last system (1996-ish) I went ahead and built custom fiberglass kickpods. Before I fiberglassed the pods, I held the baffles in place with some backbrace. I then taped a mirror to the baffle over the speaker hole. I aligned the passenger side speaker so it was on axis with the driver - I could see myself in the mirror when I was siting in the driver's seat. I did the complete opposite for the driver's side. My tweeters were mounted of a bridge over the woofer (Quart coaxials) and at a bit of an angle, so I just rotated the driver until the tweeters were more or less aimed at the exact center of the car.

 

The soundstage wasn't perfect, it was kinda low, but much higher then I expected. I had no equalization in the car, but I competed with it in SQ and did rather well (for someone on a college student's budget). This time around, I'm using Quart coaxials in the stock locations and a RF 3sixty.2 because it will allow me to offset the one speaker by the 5 inches or so that is the difference between path lengths in the LGT.

 

Path lengths / timing alignment are critical to ensure that the music arrives at your ears in phase. Left/right differences must be minimized. But as for soundstage height, our ears are at the same height on our body, so the difference between a sound you hear on the floor in front of you and one at eye level has almost nothing to do with left/right differences.

 

The curvature of your outer and inner ears and how sounds echo through them determine where we perceive a sound's origin. This is why we give babies toys that make noise - they learn to perceive a certain combination of cues as meaning the sound is above them, or behind them, etc.

 

Every environment other than an anechoic (echoless) chamber has an effect on how we hear sound. The measurement of this function is called a transfer function, and even our bodies come into play here as sounds are absorbed, reflected, and transmitted through our body.

 

The differences between a low (height) sound and a higher (height) can be explained by looking at the transfer functions between the two. From what I was able to find when I researched this (as part of a college class, again 1996-ish) the differences in height are largely determined by the amplitude of frequencies above either 2kHz or 4kHz (can't remember which). Basically if everything above this frequency is 3 or 6 dB higher (again can't remember how drastic the change was), then the soundstage is perceived as being at a higher elevation. It makes sense I guess as a sound at eye level will be absorbed by less of our body than one coming at an angle from our feet.

 

Now throw a car's interior and its hard surfaces and odd angles into the mix and that rule gets really messed up, but the fact remains that a soundstage can be 'lifted' by careful tuning with a decent eq - or in my case from 1996 - some dumb luck. Some of the most beautiful sounding cars I've ever heard have had have had tweeters in the kickpanels.