RippinRoo Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 damn im so jealous, how much did all this cost if you dont mind me asking? It runs $249 for the day... it's $100 cheaper to go to Infineon or Thunderhill... signing up for 2 days also gives you a break, I think... that is, it's not $498 for 2 days... See http://www.nasaproracing.com/norcal/index.html for more info... (I am assuming you're asking about the HPDE cost... ) "I love the feel of wind in my face and boobies against my back." - BMW motorcycle rider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwood Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I am still a bit ignorant about trail braking - I understand it means your still braking as you enter the corner - does that mean you have to be using your right foot to roll off the brake and onto the accelerator at the same time? that wd seem to be the only way to do it smoothly - I'd hate to get off the brake and then, unsettled, onto the gas, while I am already in the corner. I'm still a bomb in, stand on the brakes and shift, then turn and accelerate guy. that's bc I still have never really gotten the hang of using my right foot laterally, for rev matching downshifts while braking or all that good stuff. just seems to damn hard to blip the throttle with the clutch in on our cars. insights please.... getting out of the legacy game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 sorry man...i recognize that you are never wrong...but your first post was wrong...and the last post makes no sense. maybe you guys on the east coast trail brake by scrubbing speed with your tires...out on the west coast we call that over-driving. im not trying to be a prick, just hate to think someone will read your post and then try your version of "trail braking" on the track. I have been wrong many times with the words I use and I'll definitely admit to that. I'll just simplify by saying "try some trail-braking". Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Well shiznit!! I just ordered the RacingBrake one-piece rotors! You think I should have gotten the 2-piece rotors instead?? Ack!! I think I get what Xenonk is saying about trail-braking... I've never considered "brake, turn, gas" as absolute gospel. There's a lot of adjustment I found I was able to do mid-corner without turning the steering wheel... let off the gas & I could tighten the corner... get on the gas & I could push out... I can see how I could use that to save the brakes on corner entry... If you plan on using the GT a lot more for track events, you should go with the 2-piece. Currently I will be putting some abuse on the 1-pieces for now and see how long they can last. I'll try not to elaborate so much the posts from now on, seems that if I get into my version POVs, I'll get flamed Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I am still a bit ignorant about trail braking - I understand it means your still braking as you enter the corner - does that mean you have to be using your right foot to roll off the brake and onto the accelerator at the same time? that wd seem to be the only way to do it smoothly - I'd hate to get off the brake and then, unsettled, onto the gas, while I am already in the corner. I'm still a bomb in, stand on the brakes and shift, then turn and accelerate guy. that's bc I still have never really gotten the hang of using my right foot laterally, for rev matching downshifts while braking or all that good stuff. just seems to damn hard to blip the throttle with the clutch in on our cars. insights please.... Trail braking is the conjunction/transition of being on the brakes with your right foot while making the turn-in. It's an overlap of the steering input and braking input all while maximizing your grip via traction circle. It's a balancing act of the brakes and steering. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwood Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 right, but do you have to be rolling onto the gas while rolling off the brakes to do it correctly? getting out of the legacy game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 I am still a bit ignorant about trail braking - I understand it means your still braking as you enter the corner - does that mean you have to be using your right foot to roll off the brake and onto the accelerator at the same time? that wd seem to be the only way to do it smoothly - I'd hate to get off the brake and then, unsettled, onto the gas, while I am already in the corner. I'm still a bomb in, stand on the brakes and shift, then turn and accelerate guy. that's bc I still have never really gotten the hang of using my right foot laterally, for rev matching downshifts while braking or all that good stuff. just seems to damn hard to blip the throttle with the clutch in on our cars. insights please.... trail braking doesnt typically involve rolling from brake to throttle. the easiest (and most common) way to explain it is to imagine there is a string connecting the steering wheel to the brake pedal...as you turn the wheel more, your foot should be gradually lifting off the brake pedal, as if the string pulled up on the pedal as the wheel turned...such that you are completely off the brake pedal when you are at full turn in...as you begin to unwind the wheel, the string works in the opposite fashion with the throttle (less steering allows more throttle). The "friction circle" concept explains this as well. the friction circle basically illustrates the concept of sharing traction. if your braking efforts are utilizing 100% of your tires traction, any steering input could upset traction and induce a spin/understeer. if steering is consuming 100%, any braking or throttle could upset the balance (traction) of the car. So trail braking starts with 100% braking (straight line) then as you add steering input you gradually reduce the braking effort so that you are theoretically still within the boundaries of the friction circle. i hope that makes sense...much easier when you see the drawing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 sorry man...i recognize that you are never wrong...but your first post was wrong...and the last post makes no sense. You should be happy that I am nowhere near as n00b as this guy's postings (but I'll do a better job rewording my thoughts and such from now on, sorry for the previous bad/wrong postings, but enjoy these really terrible ones): CED @ www.bimmerforums.com I couldn't stop laughing by reading this particular post: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446471 start with post #22 and on.. Post #32 is my favorite: "Remember: my early turn-in point should NOT to be confused with an early apex!" I can see MDork shaking his head and laughing too hard from the "early apex is some advanced sh*t", I know I was... lesson to all, dont be like this CED guy, thanks. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ah, got it... Still learning... I also forgot to tell you about that juddering, it's also from the brake pad deposits on the brake pads and rotor surface that is making that brake-shake feeling. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 CED has been ridiculed beyond all recognition...almost feel bad for the guy. my only reason for being a stickler is to help others who might be reading. i certainly dont know everything, just doing my part to stop misinformation from spreading (intentional or not) you have a bmw also or just on the boards there? lots of great people who track in that crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 The "friction circle" concept explains this as well. the friction circle basically illustrates the concept of sharing traction. So trail braking starts with 100% braking (straight line) then as you add steering input you gradually reduce the braking effort so that you are theoretically still within the boundaries of the friction circle. i hope that makes sense...much easier when you see the drawing. http://www.saskcycling.ca/~nbr/technotes/graphics/traction.gif Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 CED has been ridiculed beyond all recognition...almost feel bad for the guy. my only reason for being a stickler is to help others who might be reading. i certainly dont know everything, just doing my part to stop misinformation from spreading (intentional or not) you have a bmw also or just on the boards there? lots of great people who track in that crowd. I totally understand where you are coming from (as I am trying to learn as much for myself), so I understand your concern as well about the misinformation. I have a 1989 E30 that I will be running in http://www.specE30.com racing with NASA next year.. still working on "revitalizing" the car and finishing the cage on it... I dont post much on the BF boards namely because most of it has gone downhill.. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 cool...should be a lot of fun. i stopped posting on Bimmerforums a long time ago because the misinformation was so terrible. Roadfly is excellent for the m coupe crowd...not sure how it is for e30s. sorry to take this OT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 It's still about the track days and learning from each other's experiences and thoughts.. I think running on LS should be one of those "gotta drive it" tracks on list. When I do make my US tour, I'll definitely hit up Infineon, Willow Springs, and Laguna Seca. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RippinRoo Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 It's still about the track days and learning from each other's experiences and thoughts... Ya, I totally agree... I def appreciate the thoughts from folks on this forum... I know I have lots to learn! "I love the feel of wind in my face and boobies against my back." - BMW motorcycle rider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RippinRoo Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 If you plan on using the GT a lot more for track events, you should go with the 2-piece. Currently I will be putting some abuse on the 1-pieces for now and see how long they can last. Meh... I doubt I'll go to the track more than 4 (maybe 5) times a year... I'll keep the 1-piecers and put some abuse on them as well; we can both report our experiences... Good description of trail-braking, MDork... very understandable. Thanks too for the friction circle graphic, Xenonk... very informative!! I think I do the trail-braking as well just out of habit... the transition from full brakes to no brakes then turn seems much to abrupt for my taste... I like the smoothness of transitioning from full brakes to less brakes plus turning and then transitioning to part throttle and turning, then full throttle... I'm sure you get what I mean. I have no idea if that's the "right" way to do it, but it sure feels a lot smoother. "I love the feel of wind in my face and boobies against my back." - BMW motorcycle rider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwood Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 thanks guys, I think I understand it now getting out of the legacy game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Meh... I doubt I'll go to the track more than 4 (maybe 5) times a year... I'll keep the 1-piecers and put some abuse on them as well; we can both report our experiences... Good description of trail-braking, MDork... very understandable. Thanks too for the friction circle graphic, Xenonk... very informative!! I think I do the trail-braking as well just out of habit... the transition from full brakes to no brakes then turn seems much to abrupt for my taste... I like the smoothness of transitioning from full brakes to less brakes plus turning and then transitioning to part throttle and turning, then full throttle... I'm sure you get what I mean. I have no idea if that's the "right" way to do it, but it sure feels a lot smoother. There's nothing wrong with what you are doing.. some people (even most) overdrive the car by driving out of the traction circle [which results to either understeer or oversteer, or both!]. While there are some people that will do the point-shoot method (safer as you are slowing so much down the straight, that any turning that you are doing is still going to respond and give you grip). Late apexing and the such will come to the typical method of heavy braking, turn-in and then gas it [and use throttle steering and unwinding the wheel when tracking out, it's like the anti-brake version of trail-braking]. There's also discussion of the classic line vs the parabolic line and how one can emphasize more using trail-braking while the other line theory can emphasize on point-shoot method... as one get a better understanding of line theory, one can utilize this knowledge and go even faster on the track. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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