Official Firearm Thread V3

[TSiWRX]

Many on reddit will argue a stripped lower is a stripped lower, I disagree because i’ve seen cheap lowers crack at the buffer threading from recoil. (See Anderson and Palmetto State)

 

 

Parts are never just parts.

 

 

In all honesty, you really owe it to yourself to listen to that 4-hour P&S ModCast on AR QC/QA, it's an amazing look beyond even hobbyist-level knowledge of the platform and the individual components that goes into the equation.

 

 

 

 

Spike’s makes good stuff, for someone on a “budget” that’s as cheap as I would go for starting with a stripped lower.

 

 

This I definitely agree with, too.

 

 

I think that for folks buying stripped lowers from "lesser tier" makes, the easiest thing for them to do would be to just take along a magazine (if not also a one-piece trigger assembly) - to get in good with the store personnel and go there on an off day, and let them allow you to at least drop in these easy components for a quick-and-dirty fitment test.

 

 

 

Certainly, it won't guaranty that everything will be peachy, but it'll at least rule out the most egregious.

 

 

 

 

I agree aero precision is inconsistent but having this discussion on reddit with 20 somethings falls on deaf ears.

 

 

Same with FB.

 

 

 

The knowledge that comes about from discussions always gets lost, and somehow the "TL:DNR" has become a legitimate response, instead of folks actually taking the time to read and understand.

 

 

 

It makes me both mad and sad.

 

 

 

But then again, people no longer read books (and I don't mean just hardcopy paper, I also mean electronically, or even via audio format)...I guess this really shouldn't surprise me.

 

 

 

 

Since my article got nixed on comparing rifles i’ll give you guys the details:

 

 

 

 

(Speaking of, TSI lmk if RCA ever does a factory sale)

 

 

I'll make a note of it, no problem!

 

 

Both Chris Cerino and Andrew Blubaugh are local to me, and they're aligned with RCA as partners, IIRC.

 

 

 

Windham Weaponry Way of The Gun( $1300-1600 street price)....

 

 

Do they discount Proctor's carbine course with purchase, or no?

 

 

 

 

Sig Sauer M400 Elite Ti ($900-1200 street price): If you’re on a budget and you want a tacticool rifle, go for it. If not, save your money. I wish Sig Sauer stuck to making products they do best. The Romeo Red Dot isn’t good, cheap cerakote job, trigger was too jerky there just wasn’t much to love. I do love the Rail but i’m positive it’s a Midwest Industries Rail. Accuracy wise it shot 3 MOA with Hornady Black and 1.5 MOA with the black hills. Doing the bumpfire test the bolt looked like a sledgehammer was taken to it. I had to sign an NDA with sig that I wouldn’t share photos of the damages since we didn’t publish the article. Sig made this rifle to have something in the low price point market, they put no effort in to it.

 

 

Uggh, that's sad to hear.

 

 

 

But thank you for your honesty.

 

 

 

 

Colt LE6920 ($600-900 street price)

 

 

Any idea of the date of manufacture on the Colt?

 

 

 

My good buddy has a 6920 that's been through a lot of class work and seif-driven practice and continues to be a solid gun, but a lot of folks I trust have poo-poo'ed recent-make Colts due to QC/QA issues. It's always been on my go-to list for recommendations for folks for whom the rifle will either be their first beater or is likely to be their only gun, but as of the last two years or so, I've only made the recommendation with the above caveat.

 

 

 

He's taken his time and upgraded it over the last two years as he's increased his shooting proficiency and started to really come into his own "style." He even took it to an armorer class where he as one of the students completely tore it down and rebuilt it.

[THE RZA]

Windham: not sure, Would look on their website to see.

 

Colt: it looks to be manufactured in January of this year. It seemed no different than my old LE6920 Magpul edition.

 

I had the option to keep both the colt and the windham, I opted not to and donated them to my local PD. I have my L Dub, my AR10, and my new Noveske Build i’m happy with my collection. Next thing I would get and won’t be for a year or so is a SCAR 16.

[rodan]

My Colt 6920 has been stone reliable through many thousands of rounds (I really don't even know the round count). Then again, it's old enough to buy a drink...

[THE RZA]

I'm taking a Costa class in september for Vehicle Elements Theory

[TSiWRX]

^ It should be fun. Great Meadows or Garrettsville? I'm assuming the former?

 

 

 

Are you able to get a shorter gun for the class?

 

 

 

You'll give us all here an AAR, of-course?

 

 

 

Windham: not sure, Would look on their website to see.

 

 

 

I had a brain fart - that was both obvious and easy! :lol:

 

 

It looks like it just comes with one of his CDs, and that's it. But then again, that's par-for-course with these guns.

 

 

Buying a gun is not meant to be buying an experience like: https://www.cabelas.com/assets/cms/img/CLUB/theexperience/2018magpuldefensive.html

[THE RZA]

I think you get a discount for the rifle after you take the course and you mail in the factory rebate to Windham.

 

I'm taking it at Great Meadows, gonna be a pain now that NJ law is 10 round magazine capacity so more than half the day will be spent reloading

 

NJ law doesn't allow AR's shorter than 16" or AR pistols for that matter. Although under a weird loophope in our laws, if you start with a stripped lower and build it with a pistol brace and the OAL to 26" or more it's a "firearm" by the ATF's classification and from my understanding that's kosher. I just built one, I may use it for that class.

[TSiWRX]

I think you get a discount for the rifle after you take the course and you mail in the factory rebate to Windham.

 

 

That would be nice.

 

 

 

I wrote on the DDOG FB Page (in a thread which solicited ideas about what DD could do to better show off their ARs) that DD should team up with industry personalities again to run customer-appreciation/exclusive training classes in all the major regions. The post received I think the most "Likes" out of all other suggestions in the thread, but who knows. It wasn't an official DD solicitation, just one of those things where another member posted up a "what if" kind of deal.

 

 

 

 

I'm taking it at Great Meadows, gonna be a pain now that NJ law is 10 round magazine capacity so more than half the day will be spent reloading

 

 

Hey, at least you'll get in a lot of reps!

 

 

 

 

NJ law doesn't allow AR's shorter than 16" or AR pistols for that matter. Although under a weird loophope in our laws, if you start with a stripped lower and build it with a pistol brace and the OAL to 26" or more it's a "firearm" by the ATF's classification and from my understanding that's kosher. I just built one, I may use it for that class.

 

 

ARRRGH! I must be stupid.

 

 

 

For some reason, I can remember you're in NJ, just not that you poor folks have to abide by all those ridiculous laws.

[blindguy74]

Many on reddit will argue a stripped lower is a stripped lower, I disagree because i’ve seen cheap lowers crack at the buffer threading from recoil. (See Anderson and Palmetto State)

 

Spike’s makes good stuff, for someone on a “budget” that’s as cheap as I would go for starting with a stripped lower. I agree aero precision is inconsistent but having this discussion on reddit with 20 somethings falls on deaf ears.

 

Since my article got nixed on comparing rifles i’ll give you guys the details:

 

BCM Gunfighter Jack ($2000-2200 street price): i liked this rifle a lot. In this price range for a DI rifle you’re looking at DD, KAC, Noveske etc. it took a beating, thru a 2000 round bumpfire test and another 2000 rounds of various shooting drills it didn’t show any wear. Shot sub MOA at 100 yards using 62 gr Hornady black and even better with Black Hills 77gr HPBT. My only gripe is they went for a $500 Geissele rail but a $60 ACT trigger. BCM makes just as good rails where they could save money and put a SD-C trigger in. High value for the money

 

Noveske Chainsaw ($1800 street price): similar to the BCM, almost identical results, same trigger, I was skeptical about Noveske, my girlfriend has the Ghetto Blaster and I wasn’t crazy about it. Shooting this rifle lead to me building a Noveske of my own which came to $1500 total build price. Noveske is a “parts” rifle but they put the best parts together in a rifle. The Barrel is Pacnor, but it is a proprietary cut and rifling to John Noveske’s standard from when he worked there, Rubber City Armory BCG, only thing Noveske makes themselves is the lower and the rails I believe. For $1800 it’s a good rifle but Unless you really want a Noveske Rifle, you aren’t missing out if you go for BCM, DD or another brand. (Speaking of, TSI lmk if RCA ever does a factory sale)

 

Windham Weaponry Way of The Gun( $1300-1600 street price): I really liked this rifle. It’s Windham’s “high end” rifle tricked out with a BCM Mod O brake, Midwest Industries 15” keymod rail, CMC flat face trigger, Magpul MOE grip and MOE stock. A majority of WW’s rifles have that bland A2 look so it sticks out from their lineup. 100 yards shot 1.5 MOA with Hornady Black 62 gr, sub MOA with black hills 77gr hpbt. Windham Weaponry isn’t known for their precision so the right ammo said something. Bumpfire test this rifle was fine and all the other abuse showed minimal wear. For $1600 or less this rifle gives you a lot for your money. Transferrable lifetime warranty as well which is rare.

 

Sig Sauer M400 Elite Ti ($900-1200 street price): If you’re on a budget and you want a tacticool rifle, go for it. If not, save your money. I wish Sig Sauer stuck to making products they do best. The Romeo Red Dot isn’t good, cheap cerakote job, trigger was too jerky there just wasn’t much to love. I do love the Rail but i’m positive it’s a Midwest Industries Rail. Accuracy wise it shot 3 MOA with Hornady Black and 1.5 MOA with the black hills. Doing the bumpfire test the bolt looked like a sledgehammer was taken to it. I had to sign an NDA with sig that I wouldn’t share photos of the damages since we didn’t publish the article. Sig made this rifle to have something in the low price point market, they put no effort in to it.

 

Colt LE6920 ($600-900 street price): it’s good rifle, if an A2/M4 look alike doesn’t bother you it’s a great rifle for the money as many of us know since we owned one. Great barrel, pretty good BCG and internal parts, it’s a solid platform with room to modify to your liking. The trigger sucks but that’s not any news. Bump fire test showed no signs of wear, for this i liked the A2 handguard because the double heat shield LOL. Accuracy was 2 MOA with hornady black. 1.5 MOA with the Black Hills, i owe a lot of this to the trigger, but for the money, it’s a great rifle for all levels.

 

So to rank them (overall experiences)

1. BCM Gunfighter Jack

2. Windham Weaponry Way of the Gun

3. Noveske Chainsaw

4. Colt LE6920

5. Sig Sauer M400

 

All Rifles were tested with a Trijicon MRO and a Trijcon Accupower

 

 

You might be wondering, did I like any of them more than my LWRC? No

 

Link or pics of said PSA and Anderson lowers cracked at the buffer threads?

I've heard of polymer lowers doing this and magnesium alloy lowers also...never heard of PSA or Anderson...

And yes of course I own both...with thousands of rounds through...well the PSA (2 of them) Anderson is newer and just assembled so has seen a lot less.

NM ...found a link on m4carbine.net.....maybe I'll throw the Anderson lower away...dammit

I'm not a true operator

Edited June 22, 2018 by blindguy74

[TSiWRX]

^ Subscribe to the FB Group:

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/heckinweaponmalfunctions/

 

 

It's got all sorts of fun.

[THE RZA]

Theoretically that can happen with any brand lower, but when you’re charging $40 for a lower receiver I can’t imagine it being made with quality metals. Combine that with cheap BCG’s and ammo it’s a recipe for disaster. Start with a Spike’s lower at the minimum, or splurge more and get an assembled lower from BCM or LWRC and build from there.

 

I laugh too hard when people on reddit tell me their $600 frankenbuilds with Anderson and PSA parts are better than a LWRC, PWS, POF or any high end rifle for that matter. You get what you pay for. You run a cheap rifle with cheap ammo it’s going to fail.

[TSiWRX]

Theoretically that can happen with any brand lower, but when you’re charging $40 for a lower receiver I can’t imagine it being made with quality metals. Combine that with cheap BCG’s and ammo it’s a recipe for disaster. Start with a Spike’s lower at the minimum, or splurge more and get an assembled lower from BCM or LWRC and build from there.

 

 

There aren't that many places doing the forgings. Unless you're going with one of the billets or the exotic materials (and both become a whole different ballgame altogether), that's not really the issue.

 

 

The issues comes in with QA/QC.

 

 

 

Dimensional issues are one thing that is readily apparent here. As are small parts that fall below (or are otherwise outside of) the "MilSpec" TDP. It then becomes an issue of whether the company that does the final work actually goes to the trouble of QA/QC, and how in-depth they pursue such assurances and testing. There's a reason why those little springs and detents in a Colt or other MilSpec LPK are the colors that they are, and it's not because of prettiness, but because they are a certain metal that's been heat and chemical treated in a certain way so as to insure that they'll meet or exceed a certain usage and life cycle, and also so that they won't wear a hole in the parts that they are designed to capture (provided that part is, by itself, also correctly made). There's a reason why when you open 10 Aero bolts from their complete BCGs that some will have an insert or a doughnut and others won't, versus when you look at the BCM, they'll all contain the insert and ship with the doughnut separate.

 

 

 

This is where the cost differences come in, outside of the actual material and, in the case of uppers and lowers, where the forgings originated.

[THE RZA]

there's a lot of companies that don't manufacture anything which I tend to avoid.

 

Noveske doesn't manufacture much in house, I think the only things they actually manufacture are their lower receivers and rails. Uppers are VLTOR, Barrels are Pacnor (rifled exclusively to their specs), BCG's are Rubber city Armory, Geissele Charging Handle, Geissele and ALG Triggers, Magpul Furniture (that I'm fine with, after my experience with LWRC's stock, stick to the experts on the furniture) but that doesn't bother me so much because they use the highest quality parts they could find to put together a rifle that delivers a great shooting experience.

 

That's what I look for now, a rifle that's reliable AND has a good shooting experience. My Colt was reliable, but I didn't like shooting it.

[TSiWRX]

there's a lot of companies that don't manufacture anything which I tend to avoid.

 

Noveske doesn't manufacture much in house, I think the only things they actually manufacture are their lower receivers and rails. Uppers are VLTOR, Barrels are Pacnor (rifled exclusively to their specs), BCG's are Rubber city Armory, Geissele Charging Handle, Geissele and ALG Triggers, Magpul Furniture (that I'm fine with, after my experience with LWRC's stock, stick to the experts on the furniture) but that doesn't bother me so much because they use the highest quality parts they could find to put together a rifle that delivers a great shooting experience.

 

That's what I look for now, a rifle that's reliable AND has a good shooting experience. My Colt was reliable, but I didn't like shooting it.

 

Whether a vendor is a "manufacturer" really doesn't mean that much to me, as long as the parts they use are quality components *_and_* their assemblers/builders actually know what they are doing, because those two factors are really what makes the difference. Take Sons of Liberty Gun Works, for-instance. There's a reason why they use the parts they use in their guns and why they take the time and energy to build the guns they way they do. Same with Noveske, as you cited. We all remember the not-long-ago "walk through video" that a lesser make made of their shop floor, which got dissected and bashed by the online AR community for the lackadaisical manner in which their assemblers Bubba'ed together the guns that were heading out of their warehouse.

 

The biggest problems with the big parts like the lower and upper is not their materials - rather, it's whether or not they are in-spec. And that's not so much in terms of the forging, but rather, in the final machining/milling. Most actually agree that the typical 7075-T6 forgings are essentially the same, and it's whether the parts finished to - or even beyond to a more exacting standard than - spec'ed tolerance that's the problem: think inability of fire-control components to properly align/install, problematic grip screw threading, take-down pin alignment issues, or magwell tolerances, which are the common complaints on the "lesser" lowers, such as Andersons.

 

And this is as much a manufacturing issue as it is a QC/QA issue. As Chad Mercer and Tom Victa noted openly on a past P&S ModCast, this is where they can't fathom how Anderson and the like are able to push out lowers and small parts at the price-point they're at...because having been inside that part of the industry intimately (with big-name companies such as LWRC and FN), they know the costs involved to insure the level of QC/QA necessary, and they can't fathom how the discount companies are able to have prices so low, without cutting some very harsh corners.

 

And this cost extends to that subjective "feel" you cited, too.

 

A functional, reliable, and durable weapon is what the "MilSpec" TDP is after.

 

It's the finer art of tuning the gas system, managing the recoil buffer assembly, matching the gun with a for-purpose muzzle device, and going after that extra bit of durability/reliability (like penguin so nicely explained of the KAC's proprietary bolt assembly, for-instance) and/or accuracy/precision (by, for example, managing barrel harmonics - look at the BCM's ELW profile barrel [and I get it, no, it's not a precision barrel, by-far, but it is very good for what it actually is), of the gun being spec'ed with parts that make sense - that makes for these "more enjoyable" guns.

 

 

But that takes engineers sitting behind computers. It takes time and experience (listen to how passionate and knowledgeable guys like Mike Mihalski are, when they discuss the finer points of the AR as a mechanical system). It takes a willingness to go that extra mile in QA/QC - and all of that costs money.

 

I think people take things too far when they "snob-free" their AR, or when they narrowly look at the field as either "duty grade" or not.

 

I think that in the vast majority of cases, "hobby-grade" Anderson, PSA, Aero, or what have you guns will work just fine - and that they will be every bit as durable, reliable, and accurate as any "duty-grade" gun. But that said, the chances that something may be awry on the lower-tier components or completes: be it something instantaneously no-go such as components being out-of-spec or something that comes over time - durability/reliability related - with wear and tear also increases, and depending on one's end-purpose for that weapon, this may be a no-go criteria.

Edited June 22, 2018 by TSi+WRX

[THE RZA]

No disagreement from me there.

 

Ultimately I don’t care if someone wants to waste their money, let them. If my $2000 LWRC makes it to 20k rounds and i’m still on barrel, BCG and trigger #1 and they’re on barrel #3, BCG #2 or 3, and trigger number 2, they’ve invested more money and time in to their rifle than me, so who’s the smarter owner?

 

Though I will probably not shoot this rifle to 20k rounds, that’s serious usage and money on ammo Only routine maintenance LWRC recommends between 0-20k is replacing the piston at 10k rounds and it’s not a must.

[Penguin]

My brief take on this is that you’re either willing to pay for engineering knowledge, skilled assembly and inspection, and product testing or you’re not. You’re either a fully qualified person to do all those things yourself, or more than likely you’re not.

 

The extra intellectual effort, and hands on labor for good assembly and QC costs money. There’s no real magic here, we’re talking about steel, aluminum, and plastics for the most part. For some reason there is a subset of morons in the firearms community who refuse to comprehend that parts are not just parts in every case. These stupid assholes believe that the gun should basically be sold for the cost of raw materials. You’ll find these retards buying cheap parts, assembling AR’s incorrectly, and then spending lots of time trying to figure out why their shit doesn’t work. I have zero patience or use for them, whether I see them online or worse at the range.

 

In fact I wish there was a law prohibiting these mouth breathing inbred fucks from polluting my local range with their constantly malfunctioning ******* carbines/rifles. I don’t want to have to stop what I’m doing while bubba try’s to unfuck his PSA $400 build. Nor do I want to talk to him about it. Nor do I want to justify why I buy complete rifles, that clearly work... which you’d think would be self evident but bubba is typically pretty stupid.

[THE RZA]

My brief take on this is that you’re either willing to pay for engineering knowledge, skilled assembly and inspection, and product testing or you’re not. You’re either a fully qualified person to do all those things yourself, or more than likely you’re not.

 

The extra intellectual effort, and hands on labor for good assembly and QC costs money. There’s no real magic here, we’re talking about steel, aluminum, and plastics for the most part. For some reason there is a subset of morons in the firearms community who refuse to comprehend that parts are not just parts in every case. These stupid assholes believe that the gun should basically be sold for the cost of raw materials. You’ll find these retards buying cheap parts, assembling AR’s incorrectly, and then spending lots of time trying to figure out why their shit doesn’t work. I have zero patience or use for them, whether I see them online or worse at the range.

 

In fact I wish there was a law prohibiting these mouth breathing inbred fucks from polluting my local range with their constantly malfunctioning ******* carbines/rifles. I don’t want to have to stop what I’m doing while bubba try’s to unfuck his PSA $400 build. Nor do I want to talk to him about it. Nor do I want to justify why I buy complete rifles, that clearly work... which you’d think would be self evident but bubba is typically pretty stupid.

 

 

 

:lol: how would you like to publish this rant on one of the platforms I write for?

[TSiWRX]

 

Ultimately I don’t care if someone wants to waste their money, let them. If my $2000 LWRC makes it to 20k rounds and i’m still on barrel, BCG and trigger #1 and they’re on barrel #3, BCG #2 or 3, and trigger number 2, they’ve invested more money and time in to their rifle than me, so who’s the smarter owner?

 

Though I will probably not shoot this rifle to 20k rounds, that’s serious usage and money on ammo Only routine maintenance LWRC recommends between 0-20k is replacing the piston at 10k rounds and it’s not a must.

 

 

I think you'll get there fast enough. My goal for the new beater last year was 5K rounds, and I only missed it by about 500 or so because I got injured and stopped going to the range to practice: most of that was just classes, and I didn't even take that many classes, compared to some of the guys I know.

 

 

Even not training nearly as much, my original beater managed 4K rounds over the span of a little over a year.

 

 

----

 

 

 

My brief take on this is that you’re either willing to pay for engineering knowledge, skilled assembly and inspection, and product testing or you’re not. You’re either a fully qualified person to do all those things yourself, or more than likely you’re not.

 

 

Very well said.

 

 

The real problem is a combination of choice-supportive bias and regret aversion bias.

 

 

 

 

The extra intellectual effort, and hands on labor for good assembly and QC costs money. There’s no real magic here, we’re talking about steel, aluminum, and plastics for the most part. For some reason there is a subset of morons in the firearms community who refuse to comprehend that parts are not just parts in every case. These stupid assholes believe that the gun should basically be sold for the cost of raw materials. You’ll find these retards buying cheap parts, assembling AR’s incorrectly, and then spending lots of time trying to figure out why their shit doesn’t work. I have zero patience or use for them, whether I see them online or worse at the range.

 

 

The worst thing, though, is not like the knowledge isn't out there or is somehow difficult to access.

 

 

Anyone can sit down and spend the hour to watch the late Pat Roger's final lecture and gain excellent basic, fundamental knowledge from that wonderful presentation. For free.

 

 

 

Spend the $15 to $25 on Panteao's website or the like and stream, for example, Dean Caputo's AR15 Armorer's Bench video, and they'll be able to confidently take apart and put back together their weapon.

 

 

 

That same person can then step up to the few hours of P&S Modcasts and really nerd-out - delving deeper than any hobbyist-level shooter/enthusiast would ever truly need. Again, this is totally for free.

 

 

 

Finally, instead of a blasting off case of .223 half-drunk at their third-inbred-cousin's back-yard, they could take that same money - and the time it took to drink that alcohol and recover from the hangover - and easily have the necessary funds to attend a great open-enrollment "armorer's class" that will give them virtually all the knowledge that they'd need, short of the certificate.

[THE RZA]

I listen to The Fort Knox Podcast, it’s Corey from Superior Defense/the dude with the epic beard in the Noveske videos. It’s more a lifestyle podcast but it nails so many points

[Penguin]

:lol: how would you like to publish this rant on one of the platforms I write for?

 

I’m open to it.

[TSiWRX]

Penguin, was this you?

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/BlackfoxIRT/photos/a.216612628762816.1073741829.184454238645322/462882550802488/?type=3&permPage=1

 

 

 

 

 

One of the things I've seen over and over and over again at matches and frankly am growing quite tired of it is the issue of malfunctions in pistols and carbines.

 

 

The last match I attended (you all may have seen the posts), I witnessed numerous malfunctions occur that were all platform related (not ammunition and not feed source).

 

 

Stovepipes, failure to extract, failure to eject, fail to feed, bolt override, and double feeds were all issues noted in the last match I attended.

This match required less than 50rds rifle and less than 50rds pistol to run it clean.

100 of each if youre a poor shooter.

 

 

 

Ladies, gents, and all others... if your Carbine or Pistol cannot chew through 100rds of quality ammunition with no hiccups, then you need to cease and desist all match shooting and attend a basics in firearm care course (NRA beginner level) and a Level 1 Carbine & Pistol course (local instructional ranges).

 

 

 

 

I find it highly suspicious that you'd post up a rant just hours before this one!

[Penguin]

Nope I don’t do Facebook.

 

Just goes to show this is an epidemic.

[THE RZA]

 

Thanks to the Noveske Crew

[chowser51]

Well my Glock 35 9mm threaded conversion barrel came in. I have ten mags coming in tomorrow and a few cases of 147gr ammo in. Time for some fun once I find out where I put the suppressor height sights.

 

[Penguin]

Slap an RMR on that bad boy.

[chowser51]

I had a Trijicon RMR on it but didn’t like it. I’m looking at the Shield/Jpoint one they released a smaller one recently.