Yates Posted November 29, 2013 Share Posted November 29, 2013 ok before anyone says your KILLING a Subaru READ! I live in a country where there is no snow and I don't go off road so no need for AWD I am using the Subaru a sound car more than anything and in no way is it for speed skids and drifting. It auto that's the biggest problem with this every RWD conversion I have seen has been manual. is there any problem gonna occur with this swap due to it being auto? I understand I will have to get stronger diff and rear axles to handle the RWD if you could point me in the right direction on what I need. mostly the reason I want to do this is I am lowering (already removed body spacers and replaced all the RS/GT goodies) it quite a bit and I don't want to be replace front CV's every week and don't just want to take them out because I'll guzzle fuel for no reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headtrauma89 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I don't think you will want to do it with an auto. I believe (iirc) the 4EAT is split 80/20 with a limited slip that throws it into 50/50. Meaning that (unless your slipping) 80% of your power is going to the front axles. The 5MT is always 50/50 on the other hand, and doesn't use a limited slip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 I don't think you will want to do it with an auto. I believe (iirc) the 4EAT is split 80/20 with a limited slip that throws it into 50/50. Meaning that (unless your slipping) 80% of your power is going to the front axles. The 5MT is always 50/50 on the other hand, and doesn't use a limited slip. so even if the center diff is weld the auto transmission would only send 20% of the power to the rear wheels I just don't want to replace CV's continuously because of the bags on the coil overs as it adds allot of strain how low I want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headtrauma89 Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'm unsure... I've never attempted to make a 4EAT RWD... I'm sure somebody with more trans info will chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'm unsure... I've never attempted to make a 4EAT RWD... I'm sure somebody with more trans info will chime in. Thanks for the help anyway I'm interested to know would it be worth converting to manual to get it RWD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmedic Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Autos use a clutch pack behind the transfer gears to determine how much power goes to the rear. Probably the cheapest way to do would be to disassemble the front axles at the CV joints (you need the outside housing/spindle to stabilize the hub & bearing and give the wheel bearing seal something to seal against), then either pin or weld up the transfer clutch assy. Leave the front axle stubs alone. Just let 'em spin. The front diff will still be spinning but as there's no axles up there it won't be doing anything. If the transfer clutch is fused together, at that point all available power will be going to the rear axle. Happy drifting. (this method is also reversible if you ever wanted to go back to AWD---just replace the transfer clutch and front axles). PS: where you at in NZ? My cousin lives in Auckland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mailman Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 1. put engine backwards in trunk 2. install FWD fuse easy! keep the windows rolled down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 Autos use a clutch pack behind the transfer gears to determine how much power goes to the rear. Probably the cheapest way to do would be to disassemble the front axles at the CV joints (you need the outside housing/spindle to stabilize the hub & bearing and give the wheel bearing seal something to seal against), then either pin or weld up the transfer clutch assy. Leave the front axle stubs alone. Just let 'em spin. The front diff will still be spinning but as there's no axles up there it won't be doing anything. If the transfer clutch is fused together, at that point all available power will be going to the rear axle. Happy drifting. (this method is also reversible if you ever wanted to go back to AWD---just replace the transfer clutch and front axles). PS: where you at in NZ? My cousin lives in Auckland. Don't want it for drifting its just cause its low could I take the axle out and just sit the end of the CV's just spin just because in NZ we have to comply with all these road rules and CV's on too higher angles is one of them Yeah Im 2 hours from Auckland going there tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 1. put engine backwards in trunk 2. install FWD fuse easy! keep the windows rolled down... and have a roof scoop for the radiator I need the boot for sounds already stripped it quite a bit had this setup not long ago 2 18's with stck springs sat it too low droped 5cm http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w658/yates111/box%20nearly%20done/IMG_20130725_161455_zps3a15fd4e.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmedic Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Don't want it for drifting its just cause its low could I take the axle out and just sit the end of the CV's just spin just because in NZ we have to comply with all these road rules and CV's on too higher angles is one of them Yeah Im 2 hours from Auckland going there tomorrow Not sure I/you follow. There will be no more axle shafts in the front, so no angle to worry about. You need to use the outer joint housing only, and really just to support/retain the hub. Without it, your wheel WILL come flying off with the hub attached. Maybe even the bearing. Should be spectacular. If you choose not to run the outer joint housing, be sure to do lots of high speed turns in a large field with someone filming. Massive YouTube views. . .I promise. chocolate rain. . . So, do whatever you want to disassemble the outer joint. Lop the shaft off at the boot, cut the cage and castrate it (remove the balls), at that point the inner race/cage should slip out. Toss the rest of the axle. No need to even run an outer boot as there's nothing in there to seal anymore. The stubs on the trans will still spin, but they won't be attached to anything and they're only like 1" long. Inner joint does not play an important part in sealing up the trans so no need. Once you've done that, pull the extension housing and weld or pin the transfer clutch together. You can probably do it with the trans in the car. . . which is great as those 4EAT's weigh a fuckton (actual number). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 Not sure I/you follow. There will be no more axle shafts in the front, so no angle to worry about. You need to use the outer joint housing only, and really just to support/retain the hub. Without it, your wheel WILL come flying off with the hub attached. Maybe even the bearing. Should be spectacular. If you choose not to run the outer joint housing, be sure to do lots of high speed turns in a large field with someone filming. Massive YouTube views. . .I promise. chocolate rain. . . So, do whatever you want to disassemble the outer joint. Lop the shaft off at the boot, cut the cage and castrate it (remove the balls), at that point the inner race/cage should slip out. Toss the rest of the axle. No need to even run an outer boot as there's nothing in there to seal anymore. The stubs on the trans will still spin, but they won't be attached to anything and they're only like 1" long. Inner joint does not play an important part in sealing up the trans so no need. Once you've done that, pull the extension housing and weld or pin the transfer clutch together. You can probably do it with the trans in the car. . . which is great as those 4EAT's weigh a fuckton (actual number). I thought you meant keep the axles there makes sense now. but if I leave them spinning and not weld it up wouldn't I still be using a whole lot of fuel for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I thought you meant keep the axles there makes sense now. but if I leave them spinning and not weld it up wouldn't I still be using a whole lot of fuel for nothing If the reason is to save fuel it's easier to convert a 4EAT to FWD. Going RWD will just give you problems. Replace the driveshaft with a plug in the gearbox to stop the oil from leaking, remove rear diff and axles. That way you will lose some weight on the car which you won't if you try to go RWD. But in reality you won't save much fuel on it. The MAJOR culprit is the gearbox (4EAT) which isn't fuel efficient at all. You will save a lot more by getting a manual gearbox car instead. The overhead fuel consumption by the AWD is pretty small. So the idea of changing the car to RWD is not very smart unless you plan to do drifting or other stuff. If you want a RWD car you should look up an old Volvo 240/740/940... And the 4EAT in most incarnations don't have a diff at all that can be welded - it contains a wet clutch pack that engages the rear on demand while the front wheels are permanently engaged. That means that unless you do some really major operation inside the gearbox you can't go RWD with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 If the reason is to save fuel it's easier to convert a 4EAT to FWD. Going RWD will just give you problems. Replace the driveshaft with a plug in the gearbox to stop the oil from leaking, remove rear diff and axles. That way you will lose some weight on the car which you won't if you try to go RWD. But in reality you won't save much fuel on it. The MAJOR culprit is the gearbox (4EAT) which isn't fuel efficient at all. You will save a lot more by getting a manual gearbox car instead. The overhead fuel consumption by the AWD is pretty small. So the idea of changing the car to RWD is not very smart unless you plan to do drifting or other stuff. If you want a RWD car you should look up an old Volvo 240/740/940... And the 4EAT in most incarnations don't have a diff at all that can be welded - it contains a wet clutch pack that engages the rear on demand while the front wheels are permanently engaged. That means that unless you do some really major operation inside the gearbox you can't go RWD with it. The reason I wanted it RWD is because I am lowering it quite far putting allot of stress on the front CV's not to mention in my country its illegal and one need replacing anyway and the others on there way out. To make it worse I want it manual because my licence specifies I must drive a car with automatic transmission and cant move on to my next licence where I can for a further 11-17 months and I was really hoping to get the car done well before then. Is there any way of welding the centre diff to lock the front from moving mean all the power went to the rear or is the ECU gonna stuff that up cause its auto:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Is there any way of welding the centre diff to lock the front from moving mean all the power went to the rear or is the ECU gonna stuff that up cause its auto:confused: No way to weld it - there is no center diff, just a clutch pack engaging the rear axles while the front axles are always fully engaged. Not sure what you mean by illegal - is it illegal to lower the vehicle? - then don't do it. The lowering will put the stress on the rear axles as well. Or just keep the lowering to a level where you have minimum stress on the front axles/joints - or at least retain the same range of angles that the normal height causes. I think that you should have a completely different vehicle to begin with if you are in the project of lowering. Changing to RWD can also upset the dynamic balance of the vehicle making it bad or even dangerous to drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmedic Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Well, purely playing devil's advocate here (and because it's fun to think about), you could strip the ring gear carrier out of the front diff, and the only thing spinning then would be the pinion, which is negligible. I suppose if you were truly ambitious, you could find a way to remove the pinion gear, but it runs the length of the trans and I'm pretty certain it supports the driven gear in the transfer gear set, so you'd have to put something together to support that. Not worth it, IMO. Pulling the diff carrier isn't really worth it, either, but if you already had the trans out and the diff housing broke off it would be a different story. The way the 4EAT is made, the front is pretty much 'always on', and the rear gets power selectively via the transfer clutch. That's why I'm saying to make one 100% RWD, you have to do something to lock the transfer clutch pack together. . .either weld it up or pin it. The amount of power you'll use only spinning the front diff with axle stubs is negligible. .. but as ehsnills has mentioned, there's really not much to gain in terms of fuel econ. by dropping back to FWD/RWD on a Subaru. I really don't get the issue with the CV angle. You can lower a subaru pretty much all the way to the point where the side skirts are dragging the ground and not have issues with CV axle angles. It's when you raise one you get problems as the axles aren't long enough and tend to do stuff like pop out of the inner joints. I think the consensus is you're barking up the wrong tree, but it's your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted December 1, 2013 Author Share Posted December 1, 2013 The reason I was so keen is that I have to get it "certified" and if they think its to bigger angle they won't Cert it meaning I'm left with a car not allowed on the road till I fixed it and I got told by a certifier thats thats the "limiting factor on lowering Subaru's" I guess I could take them off and put them back on hoping he is not gonna say that I am just going to put them back on if that makes sense. so what if I do take the whole gear box out and weld the transfer clutch I've got a mechanic who can help me and do it dirt cheap. It would be a pain to not do it once I've done the rest of the things to lower a outback changing the steering rack was the hardest. and also should I leave axle stubs spinning till I get a manual gearbox? And is it because there is no friction they wont use much fuel? I was also thinking are WRX Axles shorter meaning less angle I could use? any ideas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 The main source of friction is the differentials, you won't get any fuel efficiency improvement that's noticeable that way. The thing that might improve fuel consumption a bit is if you can shed some weight by dropping the rear diff, but overall the 4EAT gearbox is not very efficient so you won't gain much. If you really want to lower the car - then check angles before lowering and then lower just so much that you will retain the maximum angles as for a normal height for the vehicle type. If I remember correctly the axles are sloping a bit downward during a normal height of the vehicle. Check how much that is and then lower it just to that level. You can of course also limit the steering range instead to keep within the ranges of the joints. Another thing that might cause problem is the outgoing bearing of the gearbox if you manage to lock the clutch - I'm not sure if it can stand the stress in the long run. In my opinion you are wasting a lot of money and a decent car by lowering it and going the path you try to go. Any hope for second hand value is also lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 For where I drive there is no point having 4wd and high I live in a place where in once snowed and the last time it snowed before that was a 100 years and I'm not worried about resale value as I'm doing it for me and if I sell it it would be to a like minded person. So if I kept it AWD since I need to replace the front axles anyway torn and inside looks bad could I go for WRX axles are they shorter? would they help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmedic Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 No benefit to running WRX axles. Might fit, might not, depends on what year WRX you're talking about. If they're cheap or free and look the same, go for it. You can reboot the axles. If they're not noisy, take them apart, clean the joints, repack with grease, reboot, rinse, repeat. Think of it as spending quality time with your leggy. Also I'm not sure what the 'certifier' was on about with axle angles and lowered Subarus. When you lower a Subaru, you decrease the axle angle (relative to horizontal). I drive a 00 Outback wagon that's been dropped a good 8-10 cm. . . no probs. About 30mm of that was by running shorter tires, tho. Even with that radical a drop it's still roughly equivalent to the ride height of the same year Legacy. . . in fact I dropped it by running 05+ Legacy GT struts & springs & GT size tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yates Posted December 2, 2013 Author Share Posted December 2, 2013 I might go some where else see what they say. Yeah I will get on to the boot's. just bought a bonnet from auckland today and a few extra goodies from Pick a Part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooln30 Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 After reading this thread I still don't understand why your trying to convert to rwd only. The lowering thing and cv boots never have been an issue with anybody else who slams their Subarus. The best thing about owning a Subaru is the fact they're AWD so I would suggest just buying another ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmedic Posted December 2, 2013 Share Posted December 2, 2013 Lol all of this reminds me of back when I had my XT6 coupe and fragged one of the front axles. Didn't have a replacement and couldn't afford it so i just hit the DIFF LOCK switch and motored on as a RWD for a while. Good times. . . good times. I miss the diff lock. . . gotta buy an STi to get that now. I don't miss pulling those old Loyale-style axles. Had to knock those suckers out with a sledge and a big drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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