Patrick Olsen

I have tracked my car several times on stock LGT rotors and calipers with Carbotech race pads and good fluid. I was running 25540-18 ultra high performance summer tires and had plenty of brake power, feel and no fade for the grip level that the tires provided. Race compound tires would provide much more grip and work the brakes harder, but I have no doubt that my brake setup would be more than adequate since Fredrik was running race compound tires on his 3.6R (same brakes as LGT) and running the same rotors/pads as me, and he had no brake performance issues.

"Had no brake performance issues" doesn't mean that the brakes can't be improved upon. There is more to braking performance than just, "They don't fade, so they're good to go."

So unless you are running race compound tires on the street, there is absolutely no reason to upgrade calipers/rotors beyond the very capable stock units. It's just bling and bragging rights and I prefer to brag with my lap times, not my equipment.

I'm not sure what your discussion of your on-track experience has to do with running R-compound tires on the street.

But having upgraded two different cars from sliding calipers to opposed piston calipers, using the same sized rotors, I can confidently say that your lap times would do more bragging with the opposed piston calipers.

pfft, 9 lb weight savings is the current estimate, which that and getting it to fit would be the point to me. not to get better braking, but to work on a fun "engineering" project and lighter setup.

 

10 lbs lighter caliper, 1 lb heavier rotor.

Wait, where did 10# come from? I thought it was ~1/2 that - the ATS calipers were listed as 8.1# (I don't remember if that was in this thread or the NASIOC thread), and you measured your LGT ones as 13.2#.

The problem is someone has to be willing to mount them and measure.

That's why I posted on the FB page of the people selling the brackets. One would think they would be willing to do it.

Yeah, I don't see how any 17's will be able to fit with this kit.

There are already pics on their FB page, and on NASIOC, of 17" wheels being used with this kit. Obviously it depends on how the inner barrel is contoured (in addition to the spoke clearance).

I don't know if there will be any response, but I just posted the following on their FB page:

I've seen some posts on a couple forums with people having mixed results fitting 17" wheels over this setup due to contact with the inner barrel of the wheel. It would be nice to see you guys post up a fitment template (like what Stoptech or Baer publish for their kits) so people don't have to roll the dice on whether their 17s will clear or not. I have 3 sets of 17" wheels (summer, winter, & track/auto-x); it would be very nice to know this kit would clear my wheels *before* I order any parts.

 

You can pretty easily take measurements like those shown in the attached pic (from my '05 CTS-V) and turn those into a template that people could print out and test against their wheels.

 

http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/CTS-V%20pics/Suspension%20and%20Chassis/V2%20brakes/04-07%20CTS-V%20rear%20brakes.jpg

good pads have a good amount of dust. just the way it is. BUT many complain about the dusting and then use lesser pads.

 

what is the over all point of using bigger rotors etc if people are going to use less than great pads?

So the only way to upgrade brakes is to go "all in", with bigger rotors, bigger calipers, and aggressive pads? That's a flawed argument. That's like saying, "What's the overall point in buying a sports sedan and then getting an automatic transmission?"

wouldnt good grippy pads on some stock sized rotors be just as good? i mean its tire friction related when it comes down to it. ive also had the stoptech pads on dba 4k rotors with a stink i can smell inside the car with windows closed and there was no fade.

If the stock calipers and rotors work for you, great; this upgrade isn't aimed at you.

what kind of feel? i prefer the stock progressive feel. the more you push down the more it stops. not the common super boost and then nothing after.

"Common" to what?

ive tried hawks on stock rotors. then tried stoptech pads on dba. will NEVER buy hawks again.

Which Hawks did you have? You are aware they make more than one compound, right? Don't assume the company's products are all bad just because you bought the wrong compound.

i firmly believe people should get better pads and stock/upgraded rotors. stop complaining about dust. its a necessity in order to have a good pad.

Or get bigger rotors and better calipers, which allow you to get the same performance while running less aggressive, less dusty pads on the street. Win! And then give you even better performance when you throw in track pads and hit an HPDE. Win again!!

chipping the corners off of a square wheel to make it round is simply counter productive.

I don't think you've thought that one through very well. A square wheel doesn't work very well, so chipping the corners off would actually be exactly the opposite of counter-productive.

yeah. been following this thread. "cheaper calipers" end up turning into a new wheel and tire combo. i fail to see the savings.

News flash! Not everyone has OEM wheels. Many folks already have wheels that will clear this setup.

with good tires for dd i just cant understand why this particular setup is needed.

Where did anyone say this setup was needed? Of course it's not needed. Again, if you're happy with the stock brakes, then you're not the target audience for this upgrade.

i have rpf1's and will never buy wrx wheels. why others just happen to have a set is a head scratcher.

Yes, it's just as head scratching as why you just happen to have a set of RPF1s.

for what exactly? the "look" of bigger brakes?

It's not a "look"; the brakes are actually bigger.

at least you need to be honest. people are doing for others to look at. for lack of self confidence. guess im at a stage in my life where i dont understand why people are desperate for others recognition.

Ignoring for a moment the fallacious implication that there is no performance benefit to doing this upgrade, are you seriously saying that the only reason people do aesthetic modifications to their cars is because of a lack of self-confidence and a desperate need for attention? Is that why you just happen to have a set of RPF1s?

stop tech [sic] pads dont [sic] really fade when subjected to my conservative coast-and-then-brake-lightly street driving.

Fixed that for you.

most of you who cobble this together will use some generic pad that isnt [sic] that good because dust is low then will use a low friction tire are near stock widths.

lower it then do camber to make it fit. but then you loose [sic] contact patch for braking. oh noes.

Where did you buy your Jump To Conclusions Mat?

please continue on. im curious what the end results are , the final costs and most of all the cost of your time through all of this. would like to see some performance improvement figures as well. stock vs modified stock vs this setup. what pads and tires are used. stopping distances. you know. some real quantitive data.

Quantitative data like that you used to determine the Stoptech/DBA combo was better than the Hawk/stock combo?

how about super soft sidewalls of the dws tires then people putting on coilovers.

And? Do you think a soft sidewall somehow magically negates the performance advantages of better dampers, higher spring rates, and lower CG?

0* toe? really? static toe is stationary and toe is different when you are driving.

No shit?! So what did you measure your dynamic toe to be? Personally, since I can't measure dynamic toe, I rely on tire wear to tell me if my toe is set improperly. After a couple hundred thousand miles I've found that 0° toe works out great, and gives a bit of improved steering response compared to the factory alignment specs.

from what ive seen so far...need bigger wheels, spacers, with the new wheels one needs tires. maybe need longer wheel studs.

If that's what you've gathered from this thread then you need to read it again.

18" rpf1 with new tires? 2k+. all the brake parts required? 1k?

18" wheels may or may not be required. The brake parts required come to ~$600, not $1000. It's hard to find a pair of STI Brembo calipers alone for $600, and those aren't going to be brand new calipers. That's why this is a noteworthy deal.

for 3k id rather try a bbk already developed. dba 5k are 300 each.

Uhhh... DBA 5000s are not a BBK.

keep in mind...are they heavier? will the rotors be heavier? wheels? tires? you will be changing your suspension dynamics with the increased sprung weight.

Comparing a Centric LGT rotor vs a Centric STI rotor, the difference is 1#. I'm guessing the calipers + pads is about a toss-up. If you can feel that difference in unsprung weight, well, I'm impressed.

car makers use iron for a reason. something about coefficient of heat.

This ^^^ was part of your post when I got the email notification that someone had replied to the thread. I was disappointed to find that you had edited your post (presumably because you realized you were talking out your ass ); I was really looking forward to learning more about this "coefficient of heat" and how it influences the OEMs' caliper material selection. Instead you deleted that comment and replaced it with a generic link that isn't germane to the discussion at hand.

subed. If they fit OEM 17" wheels, would be amazing. A little confused that the adapter kit page says '13-15 ATS calipers, '04-07 CTS-V pads.. Are the pads of different thicknesses, and that's why '13-15 ATS pads won't work? Or are the CTS-V pads better material?

I'm not sure why their site is written like that. The ATS Brembos, the 1st gen CTS-V Brembos, the STI Brembos, the EVO Brembos, etc etc all use the same FMSI D1001 pad shape. I have not seen different thicknesses for that pad shape. The only thing I can figure is that aftermarket parts sites (Rock Auto, Summit, Tire Rack, whatever) tend to take a little time to show all of the parts available for new(er) vehicles, so the CTS-V Brake Swap folks said to look for '04-07 CTS-V pads because you'll see more results that way. Just a guess on my part.

Here's a brake bias idea. They make a bracket to use LGT front rotors on the rear of the car with the stock rear calipers. If you're buying ATS rotors and you don't have too many miles on the fronts just slap em on the back with this bracket.

 

http://www.racingbrake.com/Subaru-REAR-CB09D-p/cb09d.htm

As someone else pointed out, that setup doesn't use a front rotor on the rear - you wouldn't have a parking brake if you did that. The Racing Brake rotor is the same diameter as the STI rear rotor (316mm), but the STI rotor is 20mm thick (vs 18mm for the RB rotor). It does make me wonder if one could fit the RB bracket and LGT/OBXT rear caliper over the thicker STI rotor; probably not, but if you could, you could avoid buying the expensive RB rotors. It just so happens that KNS Brakes and DBA make a dual-drilled (5x100 and 5x114.3) STI rear rotor with the 170mm parking brake to allow non-STI folks to put the STI Brembos on the rear without having to change out knuckles. And you can get the pair of KNS/DBA rotors for ~$190 instead of RB's ~$310; those rotors + the RB brackets would make a nice rear companion to this ATS Brembo front setup, without having to spend $$$ on the rear STI Brembos. I'm guessing the STI rotor would be too thick to make that idea work, though.

Did you see my reasons why it doesn't fit? I think unless you've got a lathe and can shave the inner barrel evenly and put a spacer then it could possibly work but wheel integrity would be compromised. I'll put them on tonight and see and show why it won't work again

I can't imagine anyone would want to shave the barrel of their wheels. That strikes me as an exceptionally bad idea. Shaving the calipers down, though, as one or two folks have done in the NASIOC thread, seems like a much less risky proposition. My guess is that Brembo added that ridge along the top of the caliper to add some rigidity to meet a NVH target (see the weights that GM had to add to early Camaro SS Brembos to alleviate some sort of harmonic), so shaving it off doesn't really affect anything.

And, as shown by the post Mr. Crowbar quoted, perhaps the "17s don't fit" limitation really only applies to the OEM wheels. Gives me hope that my Rotas and Volks will clear.

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I didn't get a chance to fit my friends prodrive wheels on today. I'll try and get to that ASAP.

 

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So is that last pic the test fit with your friend's Prodrive wheels? If so, what are the specs on those?