Bolt up turbocharger upgrade - Vol-2

[BryanBNR]

Not sure what all the "oiling issue" talk is. There is an issue, it's pretty straight forward--banjo bolt screens get clogged over time with improper maintenance. Remove of the banjo screen(s) and addition of another inline filter should solve the issue.

 

Also, 1% of VF40 cores were rebuildable? BNR used to buy (or do core rebate, I can't remember) VF40 cores, no? Are you saying that only 1 in a 100 was usable? That sounds ridiculous.

 

Bryan at BNR has treated me well. I also have run a BNR 16g for several thousand miles with no issues. But the warranty truly seems lacking, especially when people invest good money to follow requirements (oil line kit and OCVs to the tune of ~$400 or so?) and then get denied.

 

1 out of 100 cores I saw were in rebuildable condition. That means I could put a rebuild kit in and repair the turbocharger and it would be usable. I kept good track of the turbo cores that came in because I used to sell the good center housing rotating assemblies (maybe 10 total) to a guy in another country. When a core would come in, we'd shake the box. If it had the box made a jingle sound we called it the VF40 jingle and knew what it was before we took it out of the box .

 

I do my best to help everyone I can, but I can't fight everyones battles with plagued cars. When I open the turbo up and the shaft is blue and purple where the shaft has metal fused together, I should warranty because the engines have a oil flow/volume/contaminate issue? How is that the turbos/my fault?

Edited June 21, 2016 by Bryan@BNR

[thefultonhow]

Bryan, maybe the answer is to not warranty your turbos unless installed by an approved shop. As much as I hate that from a DIY perspective, your primary competition (the VF52) is only warrantied when installed by a Subaru dealer, and you could screen the shops to make sure they know WTF they're doing so that the conditions that normally cause oil starvation would be checked and, if applicable, fixed.

 

Granted, I no longer have any skin in the game, since I now have a 2015 WRX with a low-mount turbo that I don't intend to upgrade, but it seems to me that most of the objection here is that you're not honoring the official terms of your warranty. This is the case because the official terms are very generous. Make the official terms more restrictive, and all of a sudden they get very easy to honor without giving out freebies.

[BarManBean]

^^Not the worst idea. Or even just say that if upon inspection that it's determined that oiling was what caused failure that the turbo won't be warrantied.

 

I'd also make the extra parts (OCVs and lines) only a recommendation to prevent / reducing any sort of oiling issue. Making them mandatory for a warranty seems silly if oiling issues will deny warranty anyway (not arguing that you need to cover this, but no sense in someone being forced to by $400 worth of parts).

[BryanBNR]

Bryan, maybe the answer is to not warranty your turbos unless installed by an approved shop. As much as I hate that from a DIY perspective, your primary competition (the VF52) is only warrantied when installed by a Subaru dealer, and you could screen the shops to make sure they know WTF they're doing so that the conditions that normally cause oil starvation would be checked and, if applicable, fixed.

 

Granted, I no longer have any skin in the game, since I now have a 2015 WRX with a low-mount turbo that I don't intend to upgrade, but it seems to me that most of the objection here is that you're not honoring the official terms of your warranty. This is the case because the official terms are very generous. Make the official terms more restrictive, and all of a sudden they get very easy to honor without giving out freebies.

 

I have a manufacturers defect warranty. That's when internal parts are left out or snap rings pop out, holes not drilled in bearing housing, clearance/blue printing issues. When you have a failure and the shaft isn't blue/purple, I warranty unless its foreign object failure (something sucked up into the turbocharger). The shaft shows you that things were properly oiled or contamiinated.

 

I have seen no telling how many brand new VF40's that have 1 heat cycle that come rattling from dealers. I used to buy turbo cores all the time for 40-75 bucks from them. It didn't matter to me if they were busted up, I machined all the end housings out for the larger unit and the parts were good to be used again. Its not a installer issue, its an issue with the factory oil supply system. It doesn't effect all of the cars, just a %. Most of the problematic cars are the 05-06 models. They are my most common customers.

 

 

When we build a turbocharger, we blue print each one. We check gaps of the turbine seal and compressor wheel, we also check both seal bores for issues. We also inspect every bearing housing to make sure all of the oil supply holes are deburred and drilled. The journal bearings and thrust bearings are checked for clearance, and the rotating assembly is balanced to .5 or less gram/in2.

 

I usually will not argue with anyone on this subject, but I have seen what these cars do to turbochargers. There is not a car out there that burns up turbochargers like the 05-09 legacy GT and outback XT. I have been doing hi performance turbochargers for close to 20 years.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Bryan@BNR

[utc_pyro]

I have seen no telling how many brand new VF40's that have 1 heat cycle that come rattling from dealers. I used to buy turbo cores all the time for 40-75 bucks from them. It didn't matter to me if they were busted up, I machined all the end housings out for the larger unit and the parts were good to be used again. Its not a installer issue, its an issue with the factory oil supply system. It doesn't effect all of the cars, just a %. Most of the problematic cars are the 05-06 models. They are my most common customers.

 

Do you see any failures on 08+ WRX or FXT's? They have the same oiling system.

[JohnnyT]

I hope I'm an exception to this rule. I have 123K on the original VF40 with stock oiling. I had the original banjo filter taken out and inspected at 112K and it was clean, so I had the mechanic put a new one in. I've been using Castrol GTX 5W-30 and NAPA Gold oil filters changed every 3K since new and everything is good.

 

I've always loved reading this thread. I often wanted to pull the trigger on a BNR, but the upgrades to the oiling, fueling and supporting modes where just too expensive.

 

Keep up the good work Bryan.

[hadvw]

I was one of the first to upgrade to the BNR 16g - December 2009, IIRC. Still going strong after approx 60k miles. I upgraded to the IP&T oil kit as soon as it became available, but ran on stock oiling for a while as well. Always synthetic, changed every 3k, usually adding 0.5-1 quart between fillups..

[thefultonhow]

I have a manufacturers defect warranty. That's when internal parts are left out or snap rings pop out, holes not drilled in bearing housing, clearance/blue printing issues.

 

I think maybe you need to make this more clear to potential customers. Something like a disclaimer to the effect of, "This warranty covers defects in workmanship only. It does not cover failure due to oil starvation. We recommend buying Parts X, Y, and/or Z to minimize the risk of oil starvation, but they are not guaranteed to work. If we determine a failure is due to oil starvation, we offer rebuilds for $X (compared to $Y for a full turbo)." I was aware that oil starvation was not covered under the warranty, but I think there are a lot of people who do not realize how often you see the issue with LGT/OBXT turbos, and so it blindsides them when you state that you won't be covering the turbo due to oil starvation.

 

Do you see any failures on 08+ WRX or FXT's? They have the same oiling system.

 

It's actually somewhat different. The 05-06 LGT/OBXT (with B25 heads) have a galley location that is different from the 07-09 LGT/OBXT and all 2.5 liter WRXes (with D25 heads). I don't know if the revised galley location plays a part in the better oiling that Bryan says he sees on the 07-09s, but AFAIK, as you say, there are no other differences, so I would assume it has some effect.

[fahr_side]

'08 WRX and all '08~'13 FXTs have a TD04 turbo btw.

[Legacy_Guy]

I'm just about to pull the trigger on a BNR16G and I've read about every thread I can find but still have a few questions.

 

I plan to run the stock injectors for now but have read that I'll be leaving some power on the table, is it substantial(+20whp) or minimal(~10whp)? I already have a DW65 installed.

 

Would an intake be beneficial at this point? Currently I have an AEM panel filter, AVO after maf/Inlet.

[Rhitter]

I'm just about to pull the trigger on a BNR16G and I've read about every thread I can find but still have a few questions.

 

I plan to run the stock injectors for now but have read that I'll be leaving some power on the table, is it substantial(+20whp) or minimal(~10whp)? I already have a DW65 installed.

 

Would an intake be beneficial at this point? Currently I have an AEM panel filter, AVO after maf/Inlet.

 

You are leaving power on the table and probably a substantial amount (+20 whp). However, there are a lot who run 16gs on stock injectors are are happy.

 

The intake money is probably better spent towards injectors. however, intakes make fun noises and you will probably see some benefit upgrading to one.

 

Do you have an aftermarket TMIC or FMIC?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Rhitter

[Legacy_Guy]

You are leaving power on the table and probably a substantial amount (+20 whp). However, there are a lot who run 16gs on stock injectors are are happy.

 

The intake money is probably better spent towards injectors. however, intakes make fun noises and you will probably see some benefit upgrading to one.

 

Do you have an aftermarket TMIC or FMIC?

 

Hmmm I may look into doing injectors next spring then if I'm not satisfied, 20whp is a lot of power.

 

If the intake isn't a huge benefit then I'll probably hold off for now. I'm running an AVO TMIC so I'm covered in that department.

[fahr_side]

You are not giving up 20whp by keeping the stock injectors, at least not on pump gas. DW65c is a good idea. You can also use the stock GRB pump as that does about 20lph more than the Legacy item, OE quality.

 

 

Sent from a device using some software.

[GWagon]

So, I'm a not sure if this thread is dead yet? I'm also a newb on this forum. So I'm sorry if I don't know the rules yet. But CURRENTLY, I have:

 

2006 Lgt wagon 5eat @ 123,000 miles

K&N short ram intake

Stock VF40 with lots of shaft play, on its last leg

Stock internals/ heads

5eat tranny replaced at 99,000; planning to get HexMods F1 or IPT VB mod

Cobb 3" catless DP with Cobb Accessport tune + OEM catback

Putting down 265whp/ 290 lb/ft tq.

 

My question is; if I upgraded to a BNR 18G + DW65c + Perrin AOS, would my car remain as a reliable and fun daily driver? I'm aware that the VF52 swap is a popular option for the Ej255 motor. But I want a bit more boost to the point where my Ej255 can at least 30,000 miles before I have to build the motor

[fahr_side]

More than 18psi is going to pop your head gaskets at that mileage. Boost does not make more power, airflow does.

 

In your position I'd probably go to either a 16G or VF-52 rather than toss money at a new / newer / rebuilt VF-40. In that case you will need to re-tune, so you might as well upgrade the injectors at the same time. You can run either turbo on the stockers but you may have to taper boost off a bit at high revs. If you're going to rebuild your engine later with forged pistons and head studs then definitely upgrade the injectors so you can get the full potential out the turbo on the built motor.

On these turbos you will definitely want to fit that Hexmods VB as plenty of owners have broken the 5EAT with the extra torque.

 

You should not need an AOS at these power levels unless you already have a good bit of blow-by and if that's the case you may not get that extra 30,000 miles before you need to tear it down if you upgrade the turbo.

[GWagon]

Awesome. Thanks for the help fahr_side! I think you're right, the 18G would be a lot of stress on my heads/ pistons. I think I'll buy the AOS anyway just because I'm frightened of risking oil starvation to a 16G. I'm planning to purchase: Perrin: EBCS, crank pulley, turbo inlet hose, TMIC, and AOS... Hopefully, all that paired with a HexMods VB Mod and 16G (or VF52 if I could find one -_-), my wagon will hold up ok for at least 30,000 miles. Thanks for the pointers.

[hadvw]

More than 18psi is going to pop your head gaskets at that mileage. Boost does not make more power, airflow does.

 

Sorry to interrupt, I'm always trying to learn - my first turbo and my first Subaru - you're referring to 18 psi from an 18g, and the total power represented by that amount of fuel/air, right?

 

I'm asking because I have a 16g which often hits ~21.5/22 psi. Been this way for 60k miles, although I think the original tune maybe only hit 19-20 psi. I went OS about 30k miles ago, and it's been 21-22 in 4th gear ever since. Am I living on borrowed time? Or is it less of an issue due to the 16g flowing less air than an 18g, so less total pressure.

 

Would you say going E85 flex fuel at this point is probably a bad idea? (I do have a hexmods f1)

[hadvw]

So, I'm a not sure if this thread is dead yet? I'm also a newb on this forum. So I'm sorry if I don't know the rules yet.

 

First, welcome to another bay area member!

 

I didn't see a TMIC upgrade listed? To go to an 18g, you probably want one, and also want injectors. The list keeps getting longer - I've been there

 

My suggestion is: search for the member on here named JMP<bunch of numbers>. He rebuilds VF40s to be more reliable and a little better than before for a reasonable price. No re-tune needed.

 

I went 16g, because I was afraid of all the dying vf40s at the time, and this option wasn't available. Well, and I wanted more power. But I would have probably stuck with the vf40. I still sometimes miss the faster spool around town/in traffic for a really quick pass. The 16g isn't that much worse, and way better after 5k rpm, but overall, I go back and forth over which one I prefer - I think it depends on where I am at the time.

 

That's probably the best way to stay together for another 30k, assuming your 5EAT isn't dying - the vf40 hits power a little lower and sometimes the extra torque at low rpm can wear out the 5EAT faster. As you've seen - replaced at 99k miles. I'm at 126k, and I only went Hex F1 7k ago (when the front diff broke) and I wonder if my 5EAT survived as long as it did due to the 16g.

 

And finally - don't take my word as gospel. I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable as fahr_side - I'm just a guy who likes cars and has been learning in his spare time..

[GWagon]

Thanks for the helpful information. And yes, I left out that I'm also getting: Perrin TMIC, Perrin turbo inlet hose, Deatschwerks 740cc injectors, and 265lph pumps. After researching more I think I've landed on a 16g. Now just to find one FS. Is Bryan@BNR still active on this website? I've PM'd him with no response, plus their website is down or something.

[hadvw]

Bryan answered a f---book message in 3 or days, even while on vacation earlier this week. Try him there.

[kzr750r1]

Better to call him after the holidays. I have a Perrin IC available in black if interested PM me. Running a 16G on stock injectors for quite a while.

[fahr_side]

Sorry to interrupt, I'm always trying to learn - my first turbo and my first Subaru - you're referring to 18 psi from an 18g, and the total power represented by that amount of fuel/air, right?

 

I'm asking because I have a 16g which often hits ~21.5/22 psi. Been this way for 60k miles, although I think the original tune maybe only hit 19-20 psi. I went OS about 30k miles ago, and it's been 21-22 in 4th gear ever since. Am I living on borrowed time? Or is it less of an issue due to the 16g flowing less air than an 18g, so less total pressure.

 

Would you say going E85 flex fuel at this point is probably a bad idea? (I do have a hexmods f1)

 

 

 

No, I've seen the gaskets go above 18psi on all sorts of turbos including stock. In this case size doesn't seem to matter. Newer motors go longer at 20psi or so but the older ones tend to have problems soon after bumping it up that high.

 

I think you get away with more on corn as the cylinder pressures are probably lower at any given boost pressure vs. gas.

[m sprank]

It has to do with efficiency of the turbo and cylinder wall pressures.

 

If you are not running a closed deck (thicker cylinder walls) and 1"2" head studs (greater block/head clamping force) then the gaskets tend to give out first (or a head lifts). Usually this lifting/failing happens between 25psi and 27psi (when using ARP studs and JEProseal gaskets) or 22+psi (stock gaskets and bolts). If you add the 1/2" studs and do not close the deck (and your turbo is outside its efficiency range pushing 25+psi) then you have a greater chance of blowing through a cylinder wall.

 

Think of the head gaskets/stock bolts as the weak point that give first. As you strengthen the weak link, what gives next???

 

Very basic explanation. Food for thought.

[fahr_side]

Yes, but I find that while the stock bolts and gaskets will hold up to 20+ psi (on pump gas) for a while on a newer motor, they will not on an older one. I have lots of cars of all ages running happily on 18psi so that's what I consider a safe limit for long term use. Of course how the car is driven will have an effect on longevity too.

[m sprank]

The member asking the question already stated "I have a 16g which often hits ~21.5/22 psi. Been this way for 60k miles, although I think the original tune maybe only hit 19-20 psi. I went OS about 30k miles ago, and it's been 21-22 in 4th gear ever since.".

 

So, the car has been running over 18psi for 60k miles.

 

Any turbo Subaru is more than likely driven hard. Start modding the car after 60k miles and you are probably opening a can of worms. Especially when many of the cars are purchased used with an unknown history. In my experience the average lifespan of a turbo EJ255/257 is 120k miles.

 

You have to pay to play. If you are concerned about longevity, stay stock. Its a turbo Subaru, it wont last forever anyway.