NSFW Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 ok, ok. So maybe a Corolla was a bad choice for my example. But history has shown that fast, sporty cars + teen drivers = death trap. There's a good reason insurance is so high on wrx/STi's Insurance is high on turbo Imprezas because turbo Imprezas are particularly appealing to people with bad judgement. Subtracting horsepower doesn't automagically bless those people with better judgement. History has shown that you can get up over a hundred miles per hour with half the horsepower of this kid's STI, and that will still kill lots of people when anything goes wrong. The Corolla was not a bad choice - there are no good choices for a driver with bad judgement. (Well, there's education and discipline, but those aren't included with any car on the market.) Kids get into horrible, fatal crashes in all sorts of cars. Maybe you pay more attention to the high-horsepower cases, but I'd bet that more kids die in economy cars... just because there are more of those on the road to begin with. (When I looked for those Corolla stories, I also looked for examples fatal crashes involving Pruises but I couldn't get past all of the news stories about allegedly faulty accelerator pedals. Every one of which I am sure was actually caused by someone pressing on the wrong pedal in the first place. It's so much easier to blame cars than it is to blame people.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 NSFW, the limits are different in a less powerful car no? Also probably less likely to joyride in a Ford Fiesta. Sure, the limits are different. That just means that a driver who blows past the limit will end up in a twisted hulk over here instead of a twisted hulk resting over there. A driver with good judgement will stay within the limits of any car. A driver with bad judgement will exceed the limits of any car. Reduced horsepower doesn't magically turn into to improved judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octain11 Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 in the wrong hands, any car can be dangerous, giving that kid a STi was just more dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneDoubleN Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Sure, the limits are different. That just means that a driver who blows past the limit will end up in a twisted hulk over here instead of a twisted hulk resting over there. A driver with good judgement will stay within the limits of any car. A driver with bad judgement will exceed the limits of any car. Reduced horsepower doesn't magically turn into to improved judgement. Ok, i agree with this, however, much like a 500hp LGT may run just as fine as a 250hp one, when something goes wrong, it is much more likely to cause a serious engine problem than the stock one which has a lot more headroom for error (i.e. knock and whether it will cause a catastrophic failure). In the same way, while higher hp doesnt necessarily correlate with higher danger, it undoubtedly lowers the room for error. Two asshats may be pushing their limits of their cars on the same road with the same skill level (or lack thereof rather). If driver A can hit 150mph before the next curve, and driver B's car can only hit 90mph, driver B is going to have a much easier time (better chance of not crashing) when they both make the same mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brady Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I disagree with that statement, TODN. The STI is going to have better tires, better brakes, better suspension than the car with half the power and still going too fast. Unless they both plow into a tree at WOT, there's a good chance the STI is going to be in a better position to come away from that dangerous situation than the driver in a Corolla or a Wrangler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickTej22 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The fact is, the kids probably wouldn't have been as tempted to be an idiot, if he wasn't in a race car. Then he wouldn't have to worry about less than great breaks etc Sent from my NexusHD2 using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formattix Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I live two exits away from that crash and drove past just as emergency services arrived. It was really eerie driving past because I recognized the papers flying all over the place as pages from textbooks. We call that area where the boys crashed Dead man's curve. It's an incline with a left curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formattix Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj1200 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Sure, the limits are different. That just means that a driver who blows past the limit will end up in a twisted hulk over here instead of a twisted hulk resting over there. A driver with good judgement will stay within the limits of any car. A driver with bad judgement will exceed the limits of any car. Reduced horsepower doesn't magically turn into to improved judgement. I don't think anyone is saying that but exceeding higher limits is more catastrophic than exceeding lower limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 There seems to be an assumption floating around here that if the same kid was in a less powerful car, he would have driven that car completely within its limits. Personally, I don't think that horsepower killed those people - bad judgement did. That's all it takes, and a person can exercise bad judgement in any car. totally this. but i can also see that extra performance is a carrot to a kid just getting their license, and will eventually entice them into using it. one of my friends rents a house from a guy that bought a GTO brand new and is storing it in my friends garage for his son until he turns 16. in 6 more years. i cant believe he would give that fast of a car to any 16 yr old, but he thinks his son will be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octain11 Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 was just reading this article, according to this it wasnt stock Despite those prohibitions, Beer was not only driving, he was operating a new Subaru STI equipped with "a souped-up, speed-enhancement package," the source noted. article http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/investigators_suspect_teen_in_fatal_QQd2lIcyOsbMsH23VZxQqM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brady Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 What is a "fast" car? Keep in mind a brand new Subaru Impreza will likely hang with if not spank a serious 60's muscle car. The bar continually changes. Remember how the '02 WRX used to spank Mustang GT's? Does that mean a stock '02 WRX has too much power now? Most of us would argue it's pretty weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneDoubleN Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 was just reading this article, according to this it wasnt stock article http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/investigators_suspect_teen_in_fatal_QQd2lIcyOsbMsH23VZxQqM An person who knows nothing about Subaru's could easily think the "STI" is the souped up performance package itself for the WRX. The car looked pretty darn stock to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitetiger Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I every time i hear the phrase "souped-up" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRude1 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octain11 Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 An person who knows nothing about Subaru's could easily think the "STI" is the souped up performance package itself for the WRX. The car looked pretty darn stock to me. that is true, but you could not tell if it was stock or stage 2 from the wreckage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Cops can check the black boxes on many cars to see how fast they were going at the time. Don't know if that is possible on a subie. A savy accident reconstructionist will check the ecm for mods. They are mainly interested in seeing how fast it was going when the airbags went off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octain11 Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 yup, they are going to check the black box for this accident, but will need help from subaru to read it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tytek Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Dude's last name was BEER... what else would you expect when you mix STI and BEER? Who else thinks the driver will try to off himself at the first opportunity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/wtf/grand/wtfg_fkdk.gif You've had some good ones lately. I'm impressed. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famaya26 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Dang RIP. Those kids that were passengers def didnt deserve to die. Sadly this is what happens when you give a AWD rally sports car to an inexperienced driver. Just the other day my bro, 18, asked if I could let him borrow my Car to go to a football game with a couple friends. 1. He has no DL yet 2. Tells me "Dude my friend saw your Subaru and says it would be sweet to test it against his Civic" I gave him a simple "No" for an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 NSFW, the limits are different in a less powerful car no? Also probably less likely to joyride in a Ford Fiesta. Wrong. A friend of mine had an 85 Jetta. I put a lot of physics principles to practice with that car. You'll drive just as dangerously, but at much lower speeds. There is a difference in semantics, not intent. My friend did actually crash that car, and it DID split in half. He fell asleep at the wheel on the way home from school, and veered into oncoming traffic to get split in half by a dump truck. He survived and he was fortunately alone. Bad accidents happen in slow cars, too. You can't possibly make the connection that teenagers in high HP cars WILL get hurt. At 18, my first gen was making ~250-260whp and 300 ft-lbs. At 19, I had a sport bike, and that car made almost 400whp. The difference was that I understood what I was doing. I understood the limits of my car (and bike to the extent that I knew better than to test those limits). I understood what it meant to get it wrong. It's not HP that kills. It's not even poor judgement. It's ignorance. It was the kids ignorance for not understanding the limits that caused this mess. Poor judgement involves knowingly making an incorrect decision. Ignorance means he didn't know he was making a wrong decision. Poor judgement was smoking pot and going driving at 4am with 4 friends in the car on a learners permit. Poor judgement contributed to his accident. Ignorance is what caused it, though. Blame the parents all you want. They were wrong to trust their son, but they didn't kill his friends by giving him the keys to an STi. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of the kid driving. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
famaya26 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qFdZ4X2Lpw&feature=youtube_gdata_player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneDoubleN Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Who else thinks the driver will try to off himself at the first opportunity... It's morbid to think about, but if I were in the same situation, yeah, I'd probably think about killing myself. And in advance, to anyone that has lost someone to suicide (I have unfortunately), I don't mean this lightly, so sorry if I offended anyone, but yeah, I don't know how I would live with myself after something like this, I'm sure I'd wish I were dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fj1200 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 You can't possibly make the connection that teenagers in high HP cars WILL get hurt. Nice anecdotal evidence but no one stated that teenagers in high HP cars WILL get hurt, it's a matter of likelihood. I'm surprised that there aren't better statistics on that. Wrong. You'll drive just as dangerously, but at much lower speeds. I'm wrong but you essentially agreed with my question? Over 95% of motor vehicle accidents (MVAs, in the USA, or Road Traffic Accidents, RTAs, in Europe) involve some degree of driver behavior combined with one of the other three factors. Drivers always try to blame road conditions, equipment failure, or other drivers for those accidents. When the facts are truthfully presented, however, the behavior of the implicated driver is usually the primary cause. Most are caused by excessive speed or aggressive driver behavior. http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic-and-safety-guideline/what-causes-car-accidents.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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