Vakharn Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I'm going to be buying a car soon and I'm somewhat torn between the Volvo S60R and the Legacy GT Spec B. I like the Volvo better from the standpoint of comfort and interior quality, but I'm worried about its reliability. The Legacy on the other hand is very reliable (I have no intent of modding either car) but I'm a big guy and I find it kind of tight inside. The Volvo is also a bit cheaper, though if I was looking at a base Legacy GT the prices are closer. I'd rather spend a bit more on a spec B though and count on it costing less in the long run due to reliability. I was ready to buy an S60R but I'm getting cold feet about the potential long term costs. Performance wise I like both and if I could split them on anything I prefer the flatter torque curve of the S60R but the Spec B handles better. Also the S60R has the turning radius of a moon. I know you guys are probably going to try to convince me to get the Spec B just as the Swedespeed guys tried to convince me to get the S60R but getting opinions from both sides seems like a good idea, even if both are biased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wera832 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just weigh the pros and Cons - Pro - The B will be cheaper to maitain and will problally go well over 150k sans major issues Con - The Volvo WILL be alot more expensive to maitain - Just call the local service deparments and compair the cost of 30k,60k and 90k services - that alone will win you over to the Subi Regardless, just consider yourself very lucky to have choices like this - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users paintpollz Posted August 16, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted August 16, 2012 meh, id still go s60r "Remember Danny - Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users paintpollz Posted August 16, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted August 16, 2012 now that i've grown up, ever so slightly, I'm more into quality than features and asthetics. the quality of the parts in a volvo is so much better than that of a subaru, its scary. "Remember Danny - Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueWhiteBoy Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Spec B hasn't been made for a while provided you're in the US. What model years are you considering for both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskajoel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I test drove them both before buying my LGT. What I remember: - The S60r has a turning radius like my Tacoma. - Those Volvo seats are pretty much amazing, and the interior on the S60 is much better put together. - Subaru is supposed to be much cheaper to maintain, but I haven't had good experiences with my Subaru and I'm probably not the best person to ask about longevity... - Front Bias AWD vs symmetrical AWD - Both are safe vehicles, but the S60r IS a Volvo... - S60r is massive compared to the Subaru. It feels heavy and not nearly as sporty in my opinion. I remember wishing they put the 300hp S60R powertrain in the S40 body. - Spec.b is easy to mod--Just a couple hundred bucks and a stage 2 Spec.B will destroy the S60r - If you do the S60r, only look at the manual. I remember thinking the Auto was horrible. - Boxer Rumble > Weird inline 5 turbo exhaust noise - Top end of the S60r is better than the Spec when the turbo starts struggling to breathe. - Subie has more turbo lag...The S60r felt quick even at 2000rpm with a more linear torque curve, but the Spec throws you back when boost kicks in at 3k. - As rare as the Spec.b is, I still see more of them than the S60r. - Where I'm from people pronounce Volvo like Vulva....that could be a plus or a minus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakharn Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Yeah alaskajoel most of what you're saying meshes with what I've seen. Well, except the Subaru reliability issues you've had which is surprising. Funny enough the S60R I'm looking at is an automatic but it's an '07 with the 6 speed auto ('04 and '05 had 5 speeds that were torque limited in 1st and 2nd). The 6 speed auto is actually faster than the manual in everything except standing starts due to the way it maintains boost through the shifts. Yes, they aren't as much fun, but a couple of serious reliability issues with the S60R are specific to the manual while the 6 speed auto is pretty much bulletproof. I also just plan to use it as my daily driver, no tracking or modding, and I take some long road trips that I think I'd appreciate the auto for. I'll be honest, I really prefer the S60R and I'm probably going to buy one, but I'm just worried about how much repairs are going to cost me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskajoel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 When I was shopping the S60r it was in 2005. I haven't driven the new 6spd auto. For what it's worth, Consumer Reports rates the S60 as being more reliable than the turbo Legacy. Some of that is because of the LGT 5spd which is inferior to the 07+ Spec.b 6psd which they don't report on. The 'R' model I also drove had the crappy audio controls which I hear they improved in / after 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakharn Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 The S60R more reliable than the base LGT? I find that hard to believe, but maybe it's not as large of a gap as I thought. That's reassuring at least. Though to be fair that's probably the base model S60 they're talking about. The R has some issues all its own. The angle gear collar, the front struts, the slave cylinder (one of the manual only issues I mentioned), the Exhaust Bracket of Death (thankfully that one is easily avoided but look it up on the swedespeed forums if you want a laugh/cringe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane86 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Having driven a few Haldex AWD based cars in competition settings, i've always felt very let down by the handling it delivers. It honestly seems designed to push like crazy.. only once the fronts are spining does it decide to send some power to the back. The AWD systems found in japanese cars (Evo, Subaru, GTR) always seems to put effort towards keeping all the wheels spinning, with either a 50/50 or even a hint of rear bias. While they'll all still understeer.. it makes it considerably more predictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskajoel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Yeah that is comparing the base S60 T5 versus base LGT. But both S60 and S60r use the same long block + trans right? Just more boost, brembos, suspension, awd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakharn Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Shane86: Yes, Subaru's AWD system is unquestionably superior to the Haldex in the S60R but I have no intention of tracking the car, and while I enjoy a good backroad blast I think I'll appreciate the greater comfort and luxury of the R more often than the superior handling of the Spec B. Also the fact that it's FWD until there's wheel slip means that it gets somewhat better gas mileage when you're not thrashing it. The handling is definitely a consideration though. alaskajoel: They have the same block but the '06+ S60R auto is the 6 speed while the T5 has the 5 speed. Also I think the greater power of the S60R is the reason it has issues with the angle gear collar and some bushings/bearings wearing out prematurely. In fact the Haldex AWD system is in large part to blame for the angle gear issue because when it engages it sends some serious jarring forces through the driveline and the angle gear collar is the weakest link. Edit: Hmm interesting thing I just discovered. I can't find a single reference to an angle gear or angle gear collar failure in an '06 or '07 automatic. I knew there was a reason I wanted an auto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzerklo Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I think most of the major points have been hit here. The Volvo is bigger and more luxurious but even if you assume that the reliability is equal the Volvo will cost more for up keep. I did look at an S60R for a little bit before I bought my Spec.B but didn't drive one. Honestly, the 50/50 AWD (Subaru) vs. a Haldex Font-Biased AWD was the deal breaker for me... Front biased AWD is just cheezy IMHO. I have had my Spec for about a year now and I absolutely love it. At this point it is just what is important to you - both cars have there ups and their downs. I tend to care very little about interior fit & finish, and place much more emphasis on driving dynamics of a car (AWD differences noted above & the low center of gravity of an flat 4 versus a nose-heavy transverse inline 5)... which is why I ended up with a Subaru. Also I had to have a manual, so anything with a slushbox was off my list. Honestly you can't go wrong with either car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaskajoel Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It sounds like you have thought it through. Either car is a good choice. For me it was all wheel drive for winter driving in the mountains. I also was more bias towards sporty handling rather than comfort, but I wanted something more refined than a wrx. Insurance was also much cheaper on the legacy versus the volvo or wrx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakharn Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Funny enough the insurance quotes I'm getting on the S60R are actually lower than those for the Spec B. Well, in any case I think I'm probably going with the S60R. I do like the Spec B a lot and if I was planning to track or mod the car there would be no question that I'd prefer the Spec B. However given that I will only really be using it for a (fun) daily driver and weekend jaunts I think the S60R is the car for me. I still love Subarus though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users paintpollz Posted August 16, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted August 16, 2012 good luck with the S60. "Remember Danny - Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidWombat Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 My parents have two S60s T5, and my prior car was an S70, so I'll provide my input. The Volvo interior is nicer, and Volvo makes the best seats hands down. The Legacy Limited seats were redesigned in 08 and the 08-09 seats are significantly better. The Legacy trunk space is much better than the S60. The trunk opening on the Volvo is so small its comical. My dad can put one golf bag in the S60 and it has to go in diagonally. The Legacy can fit 2 golf bags, and still has plenty of room to spare. Reliability: The Volvo engine/transmissions are basically bullet-proof, same for Subaru. The turbo on both should be considered a wear item with a lifespan of about 120k. Turbo failure on the Subaru can be more catastrophic with the potential to throw turbo shrapnel into the engine. The main weakness on the Volvo seems to be electronics. My S70 went through two ABS, two window motors, a cruise control, etc, in the 7 years I owned it. If you keep on top of the regular maintenance and stay stock, either is likely to be a reliable car for a long-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Having driven both, I like them both very much. If my desire was for more comfort than speed or modding, I would have the Volvo with one caveat... I freaking hate Volvo interior styling (not the ergonomics which are without a doubt, very comfortable). Something about it just turns me off like a bad sci-fi space flick with way too big a budget from the early 80s. I dunno, it just rubs me wrong enough that I don't like them - at least thats why stuck with me from the C30 T5 we considered purchasing new. I think either way is good to go but if you have even an inkling of wanting to ever roll the car onto a track or do more than 8/10th driving, I would go Legacy all the way. Have you posted on http://turbobricks.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakharn Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 RabidWombat: I didn't know the Legacy seats were redesigned in '08. I haven't gotten a chance to drive an '08 or '09 yet, and given that seat comfort was probably the only major thing I disliked about the LGT I'll have to make sure I drive one before I make my final decision. LosAngelesLGT: I'm not sure why you'd say that about the S60R. The C30 and other newer volvos definitely have weird interior styling (that floating console for one) but the S60R is fairly traditional aside from the awesome aluminum indicators and the weird 'spaceball' shifter in the manuals. Also, no, I haven't posted on turbobricks, only swedespeed. I asked this same question there and the response was very one sided: Get the S60R. Frankly I'm surprised the response hasn't been more one sided here, but then maybe Subaru owners are a bit less fanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesLGT Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I was not saying that about the S60R per se, what was memorable about the one I drove was how much more fun it was than I envisioned a Volvo to be. What was memorable about the C30 was the interior...um...wierdness. I find it entertaining that the Volvo drivers would be so fanatical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vakharn Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 So was I. "Fanatical Volvo drivers!" It's just not a phrase that you'd expect to be saying. When I think of Volvo I think of beige. They're just... kind of beige cars. Even when they're not beige. At least that's what I thought until I drove an S60R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TylerSVT Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 S60R simply because your needs are a non-modded DD car, which the S60R does 100x better than the Legacy. The S60R has the best seats in the entire world... ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spc2125 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 cousin has a 2004 volvo s60r he chose it over the 05 sti Yes the seats are comfy as hell, but I would still choose my spec b over the s60r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elpete77 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 just put the s60r seats in the spec b and you're all set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spc2125 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 But you get the brembo brakes with the s60r.... which is a huge plus And if you plan on modding, but you said you wouldnt, there is little to none people who know how to tune thr s60r. My cousin has to ship out his ecu to a guy and it will cost him like $800-$900. But you also can do some mods to the s60r without effing up the a/f ratio. Whereas the subie you need to tune everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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