Dan_ Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 First post here. As the title of this thread implies, I'll be working on a 96 Legacy that the timing belt broke at driving speed because of a failed water pump. I'm involved in other forums and know how valuable a forum can be in reducing the learning curve in working on a particular vehicle. The Subaru isn't mine but a family from church that have little cash to repair this car. I do 90-95% of my work on my vehicles so I do know my way around under the hood and have a hoist and a engine lift. I believe engine out would be the easiest. I've searched the forum and have found some information on timing belt replacement after they fail at driving speed. I was hoping that members could jump in and either point me to a well laid out thread on this topic, or chime in with their wisdom. I haven't seen the car, yet. Questions? Are pistons damaged when this happens? I'm sure some valves are bent. Techniques in making sure the headgaskets seal. (surfacing probably required?) I see that the headbolts are listed as a one time use? Anyone successfully reuse them? Recommendations? (trying to keep costs down without sacrificing the rebuild quality) Anyone replace the bearings in the idlers instead of buying the idlers? If so, what size of bearing did you use? I have access to a press. How about the quality of AM (After Market) water pumps? Is there a VIN decoder available? (Found the Wiki, however, the decoder link doesn't work.) The car has over 200,000 on it. I don't know if it was using oil. (question to ask) How stout is the bottom end on these cars? I don't know if it's a 2.2 or 2.5 yet. (VIN decode) Other things to do while the engine is out? Any known electrical problems such as corroded wires/connectors? I know of adding the grounding wires. Where have you found places that supply quality parts at good prices? I know of www.rockauto.com and their 5% discount code. Are there any places that beat them in price? Free online shop manual. I see this site has them if I recall correctly. Anyone find anything better? Anyone SW of MPLS MN what to jump in and give a hand? I'm not doing this for profit and am running on a small budget and would like to get this completed and back to them. How about donating parts? Such as, a good head(s), valves, gasket set? (If one doesn't as, one may not get.) Perhaps you have a parts car, or started a project and didn't complete it. I believe repairing this car would be better than spending ~$2000.00 on a car with unknown problems. Well, I believe that my be enough information for my first post. Having this car repaired at shop rates is out of the question. Thanks your your valuable time and insight as you reply! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 Found answer thread on towing. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/awd-towed-tow-rope-much-damagei-188922.html This looks like a good thread on timing belt alignment as well as a few other items: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/just-pulled-engine-have-some-questions-187715.html I probably will not be painting this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 i just did the same job on a 95 wagon. did it in the driveway with no problems, pulled the rad fans off at first, then pulled the radiator to have more room for big tools. the engine doesnt need to be pulled for that job, from what ive read there shouldnt be any valve damage at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 i just did the same job on a 95 wagon. did it in the driveway with no problems, pulled the rad fans off at first, then pulled the radiator to have more room for big tools. the engine doesnt need to be pulled for that job, from what ive read there shouldnt be any valve damage at all. Twisty, Thanks for the reply! So the timing belt on the 95 went out because of the water pump? How fast was the car going when it happened? Aren't these engines interference engines, being if a valve is opened and the piston comes up, something has to give? I would be very happy just to replace a timing belt along with it's followers/tensioners (including the water pump). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baddog Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 If it is the 2.2 its non interference. The heads do not have to he removed so no need to do anything with the head gaskets. Remove the radiator and access is easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Twisty, Thanks for the reply! So the timing belt on the 95 went out because of the water pump? How fast was the car going when it happened? Aren't these engines interference engines, being if a valve is opened and the piston comes up, something has to give? I would be very happy just to replace a timing belt along with it's followers/tensioners (including the water pump). mine was due to a huge oil leak. when i got it apart, i found a brand new water pump and belt, but the old seals, tensioner and idle pulleys. so, the guy that did the repair before me (a shop in phoenix, even) was an idiot and didnt do it complete. he even failed to torque the crank pulley on, so it slid off enough to score the timing marks and cause a misfire code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 If it is the 2.2 its non interference. The heads do not have to he removed so no need to do anything with the head gaskets. Remove the radiator and access is easy. Now to find out what engine. I did a web search and the VIN decoders state that the 6th digit of the VIN is the engine size. This car has the number 4 in the 6th position. But, depending on the year, it still could be a (1800cc 1985-94; 2200cc AWD 1996-2000). Or am I wrong? ( http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Vehicle_Identification_Numbers_(VIN_codes)/Subaru/VIN_Codes#Engine_types) Or is this site stating the AWDs in 96 had the 2000 engine? is this the 2.2? mine was due to a huge oil leak. when i got it apart, i found a brand new water pump and belt, but the old seals, tensioner and idle pulleys. so, the guy that did the repair before me (a shop in phoenix, even) was an idiot and didnt do it complete. he even failed to torque the crank pulley on, so it slid off enough to score the timing marks and cause a misfire code. That was a good catch! What engine do you have in your car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSpeed Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Wasn't the EJ25D an option in '96? If so it's WAY easier to do it with the engine out (and possibly the only way) and you will more than likely have valve damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 there is an id plate on the passenger strut tower, read the code for the engine. EJ@@ = non-interference. (if the car is a legacy, L or brighton is has the ej22 engine.outbacks, GTs and LSi have the ej25 interference engine.) link to how to : http://www.lovehorsepower.com/SubaruDocs/TimingWaterPump.htm if the front of the engine looks like below it is SOHC ej22 non-interference. 90 - 96 anyway, 97 - 00 are interference. this pic shows the timing ''ALIGNMENT MARKS". DO NOT use the ARROWS, NEVER the ARROWS. http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/johnceggleston/timingbeltdiagram.gif below is pic of DOHC ej25 interference engine: http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg240/johnceggleston/timingbeltdiagramej25.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Now to find out what engine. I did a web search and the VIN decoders state that the 6th digit of the VIN is the engine size. This car has the number 4 in the 6th position. But, depending on the year, it still could be a (1800cc 1985-94; 2200cc AWD 1996-2000). Or am I wrong? ( http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Vehicle_Identification_Numbers_(VIN_codes)/Subaru/VIN_Codes#Engine_types) Or is this site stating the AWDs in 96 had the 2000 engine? is this the 2.2? That was a good catch! What engine do you have in your car? EJ22 in mine. im pretty sure yours is the same motor. look directly at the block by the power steering thing, should have a stamp. took me a bit of looking to find mine, could be obscured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 16, 2012 Author Share Posted July 16, 2012 Thanks guys for all of the helpful replies! They're what I was looking for! The car is 25 miles away from me. I'm going to ask them to have it flatbeded to me. That'll probably happen this Friday when he gets paid. (that'll give me time to clean out my garage a bit! and maybe it'll cool down a bit!) I'm sure I'll have more answers and questions then. So, you guys don't think there'll be any piston damage? Engine out. And I'll go from there. Any thoughts on my parts questions? Anyone have any they would like to donate? It would be going to a good family who's struggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyposeur Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Your pistons are just fine. As people have stated, your 96 is a non-interference engine so when the timing belt breaks or falls off or whatever nothing bad happens to the valves pistons, or heads. As long as there wasn't a head gasket issue before the timing belt there isn't any need to replace or remove them like baddog said. They are just fine. All you would need to do is replace the timing belt and water pump. However, you should replace the idlers and pulleys because they wear out and will cause the timing belt to fail later if you don't. You probably have the old style of hydraulic tensioner on your Subaru which are less prone to fail compared to the newer style, they can be compressed and re used again as long as there is no weepage visible around the piston. But it is highly recommended you just put a new one on to avoid failure. However, they are about $100 and it sounds like you don't have a lot of funds to put in this. There are inexpensive ebay timing component kits that include the belt, water pump, idlers, and pulleys for $115 shipped. Then you just need to buy a few jugs of coolant. Again, don't replace the head gaskets unless you need to. Sounds like you don't. This should be good news for the family you are helping. You can do the whole job in an afternoon. Once you do it a few times it can take only a few hours. Good luck and keep asking questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twisty Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 There is a tolerance measure for the tensioner too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YourConfused Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Like stated, its non-interference motor. I've done the work you are about to do without even removing the radiator. It's really that easy. You will see how simple it is when you get the car in person. Good wishes to you and the owners. Money can seem evil at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I so hope that this is a non-interference motor! I've put timing belts in other engines. Thanks for all of your replies! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Good responses guys. And good to see the community pitching-in to help-out. OP believe this will be a non-iunerference engine. Unless it's a GT or a Legacy LSi, should be a 2.2 non-interference engine. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Good responses guys. And good to see the community pitching-in to help-out. OP believe this will be a non-iunerference engine. Unless it's a GT or a Legacy LSi, should be a 2.2 non-interference engine. Yes! All of the replies have been very helpful! New information. And it's not good! First off, it's a 2.2. The timing belt didn't break. The engine was over heated to the point the timing cover melted. The melted plastic got in the timing belt and messed up the timing of the belt. I just talked to the guy they had start working on it. He believes that the because of the overheat, the rings on the passenger side are probably messed up. He also thinks that because the melted plastic got in the timing belt, the belt got out of time and messed up the valves or piston. I don't know if this is true because of the fact that the 2.2 is a non-interference engine. The overheat is the big issue now. Anyone ever take one of these 2.2 apart after an overheat? What was your experience? I know this all depends on the condition of the engine after the heads are pulled if that's is whats needed. Do the cylinders score easily on these engines? Rings loose their temper on overheat? What is the going rate for a used engine out of a bone yard? The guy that started the work said with a working engine, the car easily can go another 50,000+ miles. I believe it's worth a working engine, being that be the one that in it, or a used one. Thanks again for all of your helpful replies! Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 $250-$350 for a good used, working order engine. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 $250-$350 for a good used, working order engine. Anyone know of a 2.2 in South West MN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnegg Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 1/ it is a 96 2.2L engine. so no internal damage due to the timing belt. 2/ it may be cooked, but unless you are looking for reasons to open the engine up and make repairs, remove the timing covers so they do not interfere with the belt and then install a good, new or used, belt with correct timing and to see how it runs. 3/ once the belt is on and the engine is running you can assess the condition. these engine are very forgiving and it MAY run fine. but until you fire it up you are just guessing. the truth will be revealed in the running of the engine. i have seen these engine quit running because of the over heat only to fire up after they cool off and go again. i have seen them make really loud valve lash noise due to low oil, and keep on going after oil was added. hang a belt and see what you have. it may be toast, but you just never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 ^ One of the reasons I love the EJ22. As reliable as the day is long in the earlier versions, only slightly less so in the newer ones. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 1/ it is a 96 2.2L engine. so no internal damage due to the timing belt. 2/ it may be cooked, but unless you are looking for reasons to open the engine up and make repairs, remove the timing covers so they do not interfere with the belt and then install a good, new or used, belt with correct timing and to see how it runs. 3/ once the belt is on and the engine is running you can assess the condition. these engine are very forgiving and it MAY run fine. but until you fire it up you are just guessing. the truth will be revealed in the running of the engine. i have seen these engine quit running because of the over heat only to fire up after they cool off and go again. i have seen them make really loud valve lash noise due to low oil, and keep on going after oil was added. hang a belt and see what you have. it may be toast, but you just never know. I had thought about dong that. I might even use the existing belt if it look like it might have a turn or two left in it just for testing. Who knows, the water pump is still probably good, but if I keep this engine I'll change it too. (I don't have a clue as of yet why it over heated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecBamf41 Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Questions? Are pistons damaged when this happens? I'm sure some valves are bent. sometimes. check the oil for metal, chances are they are fine. and yes the valves may(will) be bent, Techniques in making sure the headgaskets seal. (surfacing probably required?) its all in the book. the fsm to be exact I see that the headbolts are listed as a one time use? Anyone successfully reuse them? Recommendations? (trying to keep costs down without sacrificing the rebuild quality) i re use them that dont say much but this is my third suby The car has over 200,000 on it. I don't know if it was using oil. (question to ask) i have 240 and burns no oil How stout is the bottom end on these cars? I don't know if it's a 2.2 or 2.5 yet. (VIN decode) the 2.2 or 2.5 are tough, i rev the piss out of my engine cause i dont care if i blow it. and it runs fine still. revlimer set at 5500 and hit it every day. Anyone SW of MPLS MN what to jump in and give a hand? I'm not doing this for profit and am running on a small budget and would like to get this completed and back to them. i live in brainerd area? how close is that? How about donating parts? Such as, a good head(s), valves, gasket set? (If one doesn't as, one may not get.) Perhaps you have a parts car, or started a project and didn't complete it. ask me what you need. BNR18g on 93oct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_ Posted July 25, 2012 Author Share Posted July 25, 2012 Just a follow up. The owner of the car desided to let the car RIP. Thanks for all of your help! Dan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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