mwiener2 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I wouldn't expend so much energy fighting off knock off products just cause you guys knew better but got screwed anyways. It's going to be a very hard rule to enforce. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I agree with mwiener. I really don't see a problem in how it is now. The only problem I see is vendors are defending shitty products as quality products. If they do that, this is a forum for enthusiasts, they should expect the response they get. It should also not be hidden. Vendors earn their reputation by providing evidence, standing behind the product, etc. We have quality vendors here who sell parts that they flat out don't recommend -- you can go see their posts saying exactly that. There's nothing wrong with that, people want what they want, but the vendor is *honest*. The only concern I have is we have had a few vendors coming in selling the knockoff trash as if it were gold. When they do this, they're laying out their reputation. It should be open for debate. It shouldn't be the moderator's job to defend their reputation. If they don't want to have to worry about that, they can go sell it on eBay instead of here. We have some super high quality vendors here (m sprank, AZP, RaceComp, Climber, lossol, GrimmSpeed, KNS) and that's just to name a few I've personally dealt with. The common thread here is that they stand behind what they sell. When you ask them questions about their products, they don't hide the answers. The only request I would have of the moderator team is that you watch for these things, and vendors like some who shall not be named should simply be refunded & asked to leave. They tarnish the name of "vendor" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSpeed Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If I were a vendor, say mwiener2, and I started marketing my new location turbo as a vendor on this site. If a knock-off company came along, completely copying my product, did it in a sh*tty manner, and sold it for half the price, I'd probably leave the board as a vendor and possibly even leave the community. The real damage comes when someone says, "this mwiener2 style turbo relocation sucks and quality is terrible". mwiener2 instantly gets associated with the shoddy product even though his may be leaps above in quality. From what I've seen of the knock-off vendors we have on this site, they are not someone I'd want to do business with anyway, I think the board is lowered in quality because of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If I were a vendor, say mwiener2, and I started marketing my new location turbo as a vendor on this site. If a knock-off company came along, completely copying my product, did it in a sh*tty manner, and sold it for half the price, I'd probably leave the board as a vendor and possibly even leave the community. The real damage comes when someone says, "this mwiener2 style turbo relocation sucks and quality is terrible". mwiener2 instantly gets associated with the shoddy product even though his may be leaps above in quality. From what I've seen of the knock-off vendors we have on this site, they are not someone I'd want to do business with anyway, I think the board is lowered in quality because of them. Has this happened anywhere? I don't think this is realistic. There are a lot of knockoff products out there, and I haven't seen people associate the quality issues of the knockoff with the origin. In fact, you tend to see people defend the original product by saying "This is why you pay more money for the mwiener2 version". The examples I would cite are mostly in TMICs here, I can't think of many (any?) other places this has been an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I can't think of an instance where someone came to the conclusion the the original was crappy based off the knock off. Off the knock-off thing.... Let's look at an example of how the board handled a bad vendor from the get-go. Baller Industries. He came on the site and tried to sell us stuff. It took all of about 5 posts before the members called him out. It took no more than a week for him to get run off. I think we can handle ourselves when it comes to finding and calling out bad vendors. It's what the forum does with this vendor after they have been called out and they have no good response. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowImg Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Agreed, and a contrasting one -- when BNR came on here, he got blasted a bit due to people not believing he could deliver a quality product. Stood through it, threw down some knowledge, and now they're kind of the "go to" recommendation for turbo upgrades here. The entire thread is still in tact, so you can read the whole evolution of the product line, people questioning it, defects, handling of defects, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpmarky Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I vote for not banning sale of knock off products, keep it laissez faire. Our commuity is a great one compared to other car forums, especially when it comes to self monitoring. If there is an affordable part, our members are good about getting the word out on how crappy stuff is, or what an amazing value deal something is. Let the market speak for itself. If you disallow knock offs from being sold, what motivation will vendors have to find innovative ways to decrease costs? We are not a bimmer/porsche/audi forum where all members can freely throw money at their car at w/e costs. We are a price conscious crowd that appreciates quality and value, and we're good about sharing that information. What happened recently with 1 user complaining about a bad product is part of the development cycle. Vendor comes up with an idea how to make an existing product for cheaper, and they spend thousands to take a risk on mass producing it. First release had issues, feedback was given back to the vendor. Then the thread went NASIOC on the vendor with inflamatory posts. This is legacygt, not nasioc, we're better than that. Now the vendor has release a new version v2 of that product, and I'll be getting it today to test it out. This all happened in what time frame, 2-3 months? How long have we complained about another reputable $500 TMIC about it hitting the MBC, how quick did they respond with a new revision? 5-7 years? Would you have banned them from releasing a bad fitting product? What happened recently with BAC was a shame that he had a bad experience, but it could have been worse. What if the vendor took the approach that they wouldn't launch a new TMIC unless there was a GB of 30+ people? If 30+ people got screwed with a crappy product, that's a whole different story. For those of us who are just starting to mod cars, we rely on cheaper parts and are willing to sacrifice weaker weld jobs or inefficient cooling density fins for the joy of being part of the modding society. I would have never gone stage 2 if it weren't for the MR & CNT dp's, there's no way i'm paying $600 for a higher end one. Yes it sometimes is a pain to deal with cheap parts, BUT those pains do help each person appreciate the more expensive parts after going through that experience. That being said, what would help to prevent the masses from being abused by crappy products is a more transparent review + sales system. I like the idea of turning the reviews section into a forum subsection. That way new posts can be integrated into the ipsy/new posts section, and this would help clean out the regular parts forum to be more of a recommendations/troubleshooting/install section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec.B Dream Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Got another thing that really bugs me with vendors, but I'm not sure how to improve it. Is there any way we can get them to stop posting the same add across their various forums. This is site is geared toward the Subaru Legacy GT. If you want to advertise your deals for Impreza based cars, go to NASIOC and don't copy/paste that ad here. Even if the exact same parts fit for the Legacy, tailor your ad to state that it fits the Legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strizzy Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Just my $.02, but I think that if a someone wants to be a vendor on this board, they should have to supply the site owner with a TaxID, business name, address, and phone number. I'm not sure how it is now, but from what I can tell, it's just an expensive paid subscription upgrade. When a vendor supplies that information and is verified as a legitimate business, they should be able to sell what ever product they wish. Then there can be another option for the "homebrew" vendor. They submit their request and should be limited to what they originally plan to create/sell in small quantities. My bad luck build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I would like to add something to their advertisments. If a general board member sells a part, they are instructed to post pics and a starting price. I believe a vendor should do the same, because most of them ask you to PM them for pricing or direct you to their website for the advertise part. Don't want to waste my (or others) time waiting for a vendor to reply for a simple price. They should state the price w/pics for each product they are advertising. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strizzy Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 ^To go along with that, much of the pricing is restricted to the manufacturers minimum allowed advertised pricing guidelines. So that is the main reason for vendors requiring you to PM them for the price. But have a Donating Members only marketplace, not available to the general public, I feel vendors should be able to post prices when it would otherwise not be allowed. Also creating another perk for donating. Another thing I would like to see would be a Wanted to Buy section in the vendors area. If I'm looking to buy a new part, I can post what I want, and I can receive PM's from vendors with their pricing and availability. My bad luck build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfaber Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Hi Tide, The only other thing I would add to the above (didn't see it mentioned) would be that vendors must log in to the thread regularly (no less than a week {possibly much less}) before their account as a vendor is suspended? Winning the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjweb Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I agree that vendors shouldn't be allowed to market a product as a "certain style". However, cheap products have their place, and need to be available. Another issue I see is with vendor product reviews. Some vendors on this forum will give a product a negative review just because they dislike the manufacturer, or have a personal opinion about an item. Vendors should not be allowed to review a product. It's a huge conflict of interest. Most vendors are honest, but this would level the playing field and keep people from being mislead. I have Zero respect for vendors that sale products that they know and/or feel are shitty. You might be honest on here, but what about your other customers? Besides, there is a perfectly good review section here that most members do not even use. Vendors should also be required to PM the mods when a group buy or sale is over so the thread can be deleted and be required to delete all but their current "bump" posts. And as F1inspiredLGT said, they need to post their prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 The existing review "forum" is shitty and useless. Not to mention, only negative reviews are forced to be posted there. Positive reviews are allowed to stay in vendor forums. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjweb Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 ^^^^It's only shitty and useless because we make it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 bigjweb - again, an oversight of WHO the vendors are. Yes, a good majority of them are salespeople sitting behind a desk and don't know the products beyond a printed out fact sheet. Some of the vendors are fabricators, mechanics or tuners. These people know the products because they've used them.... their reviews are helpful. If anything, we should restructure the vendor system with different vendor types. My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjweb Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 bigjweb - again, an oversight of WHO the vendors are. Yes, a good majority of them are salespeople sitting behind a desk and don't know the products beyond a printed out fact sheet. Some of the vendors are fabricators, mechanics or tuners. These people know the products because they've used them.... their reviews are helpful. If anything, we should restructure the vendor system with different vendor types. That would be a good compromise. I wouldn't say it's an oversight on my part though. I realize that the "respectable vendors" do offer useful information, but even some of the respected vendors on this forum are biased over certain products. Because of this, their opinions can be misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Ever ask them why they are biased? My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 What is bias if not strong preference or strong dislike? Perhaps some compulsory disclosure is required so the membership is better informed. I have a good idea of which vendors have a shop, do installs and tune vs. the trader guys, and i have a good idea who to listen to and who to ignore. I don't care if a vendor stocks what he sells, I care if he installs it. Does the average member follow enough technical threads to see these distinctions? Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwiener2 Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 no My Mods List (Updated 8/22/17) 2005 Outback FMT Running on Electrons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandborn Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 crucial racing? no website, and they are a premium vendor? Is there a system of "check ups" on these? Just poking around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfaber Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Yeah, so about them.... Are they even around anymore? Winning the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChemicalWaste Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I think that the idea of raising vendor costs doesn't do anything but hurt the forum. I think it's good to have a variety of products that serve the same purpose available at different price ranges. Knock-off products should be allowed to be sold but I also agree with the lack of advertisement on that product being compared to another name brand product. If people have to innovate and come up with a product that is superior or equal to but not the same as someone else's product I think we will all benefit from the options available. Capitalism at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users paintpollz Posted May 16, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted May 16, 2012 Capitalism at work. Ahhh, there is hope for the future. "Remember Danny - Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users paintpollz Posted May 16, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted May 16, 2012 [2) Absolutely disallow the open advertising of knock-offs. If you aren't willing to put forth any money or effort into R&D, you should not be allowed to profit from the sweat of someone elses brow. Do you shop at Wal-Mart? "Remember Danny - Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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