racerdave Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 bimmerfest, to be more accurate. This is from a guy who owns a 328i... [quote]I went to the Subaru test drive event today. I had a chance to drive the Legacy GT 2.5L Turbo sedan, and the 3.0L Outback Wagon through a mini-slalom course. Both vehicles looked much better than their predecessors. Their interiors are nice as well. The event host announced that Subaru used the A4 as the Legacy / Outback’s design goal. I think Subaru has more than succeeded and that Audi has something new to worry about. You have all seen pictures of the interior. Nothing fancy, but everything is nice and comfortable. The seats are supportive and should be comfortable for long trips and for bouncing through the corners. There is LOTS of head room. Strangely, the steering wheel is a nice compact size, but cannot telescope. Oh, the trunk space is HUGE in the sedan, and the wagon offers TARDIS like storage. Only tiptronic vehicles were available today. It seems that the previous groups of guests had trashed all of the manual tranny cars. Yikes. The power in both the Legacy GT and the VDC Outback, is ample, once the tech passes the mid-2,000 range. There is little power below that range. The bulk of the Outback can be felt, however the vehicle handled very well. There is little road feel in both vehicle, and the steering is lighter than my liking, with the Outback being stuck with lighter, more numb steering. However, both cars handle very well through the course. The chassis is tight, with no noticeable flex. Both cars understeer, and the heavier Outback understeer more. You should note that the Outback has more ground clearance than a Dodge Durango, and it still handled very well. Though the understeer is noticeable, it is easily controllable with the throttle. I am sure that I can make them oversteer, but did not want to pull that stunt for the fear of getting kick out the event. To be fair, I think the tires are overmatched by the chassis and the brakes. Come on Subaru, stick some high end tires on these cars! The cars brake very well and there was very little noise dive when braking hard. I would have liked a bit more brake modulation though. Oh a last word about the tiptronic. Subaru’s unit needs work. I manually shifted from 1 to 2nd about 200 RPM the redline. The car shuttered. I later learnt that, this was because the I bounced off the rev limiter. That’s right. Either tranny is really slow to react, or that the rev limiter is activated BEFORE the red line is reach. This is will not be a big deal to 95% of all buyers, but it matters to most of us here. Overall, I would take a Legacy GT, GT wagon, VDC Outback or Outback 2.5L Turbo, over any Audi A4, except for the S4, of course.[/quote]
Dr. Zevil Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Very cool! I am glad to hear that Sube is getting props for the redesign od the car. Very nice to hear. I wonder what this guy would have said had he driven a manual tranny. I highly doubt that the manuals were all beaten to death, but whatever. Thanks for the post!
Drift Monkey Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 Hopefully, we'll be reading more and more of these positive reviews from "higher end" German auto drivers. Subaru will have accomplished it's goal. :D
avarice Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I just test drove a 2.5gt 5MT limited this weekend. Right now I have a 2003 Audi A4 1.8t 5MT. The Subaru is missing some features that I like on the Audi but there is enough there to get me to switch. I may even pick up the car I test drove if I can decide between the two blues. (It was Atlantic)
racerdave Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Just out of curiousity avarice, what features is it missing, and what is it about the GT that makes it enough to switch?
racerdave Posted June 28, 2004 Author Posted June 28, 2004 Oh, did you notice the BMW guy slagging the RE92s? :D
Drift Monkey Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='racerdave']Oh, did you notice the BMW guy slagging the RE92s? :D[/quote] Yes. I also noticed your spiffy double post.
avarice Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='racerdave']Just out of curiousity avarice, what features is it missing, and what is it about the GT that makes it enough to switch?[/quote] The biggest thing I will miss is the stability control. I normally throw snow tires on during the winter and between them and stability control the car is effortless to drive in the snow/ice. I have had high performance RWD cars in the winter (Camaro SS) so I know I can handle the subaru with ease but I just like the extra safety margin the stability control provides. Lets see... what else am I losing.... one touch windows, built in garage door opener, slightly nicer interior(subjective), handling(sports package in audi)... I am sure there is more if I sit down and think about it. I am gaining something that is really important to me though. 80 more HP and 80 more ft/lbs torque. To me thats something I can use every day.
gtguy Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 A Subaru with snows is every bit as unstoppable as your Audi was...guaranteed. With WS-series Blizzaks, I could do 4K launches with my WRX wagon, and the car just took off in a nice, straight line. In terms of stability control, I just felt the car and applied throttle when I needed to. :lol: With better tires, the handling should be as good as, or better than the Audi also, particularly with the attention paid to lift and squat, and the 15:1 steering rack. Okay, now I'm all worked up...where the hell is my wagon??!! Kevin
avarice Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I guess stability control could be renamed idiot control. The only times it ever came into play was when I was intentionally trying to get it to come on. One time I was coming out of a car wash and the tires were soapy and covered with tire spray. There were no other cars around so I wanted to see how it reacted in a very low traction situation. I floored it coming out and made the turn onto the highway. I could feel that car wanting to go into a spin but the stability control kicked in. There have been other times on ice where I gave it more throttle then was prudent given the available traction for the very same reason, just to watch it work. I would gladly trade the stability control for the extra 80 hp though :) As an aside, I drove a pontiac GTO the same day. It really didnt feel all that much faster than the legacy. I wonder if that had anything to due with the saleman coming along for the ride :)*
CombatCQB Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I have this vision of pulling up to the Subaru dealer in a few months and seeing a lot of used BMWs and Audis. But as for sport package, I think we'll have to hope for any STi versions if you're not big on getting stuff installed aftermarket. Hmm... one touch windows, why don't we have that anyway? Seems like a simple thing to have at least for the driver side. There's always the Home-link mirror that will open garage doors.
Ninjapimp Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='avarice']Lets see... what else am I losing.... one touch windows, built in garage door opener, slightly nicer interior(subjective), handling(sports package in audi)... I am sure there is more if I sit down and think about it. I am gaining something that is really important to me though. 80 more HP and 80 more ft/lbs torque. To me thats something I can use every day.[/quote] Being a German convert, I too will echo (AGAIN) Avarice's comments. How I despise the non-one touch window (UP & DOWN on EVERY window). :x Along the same lines, I dislike the non-one touch open/close/up/down functional sunroof. I also would prefer the turbo to kick in much sooner. Nearly 4k rpm till it spools makes alot of the power not as usable in standard driving. I also think that though the paint is nice, it's a bit thin compared to my old car. Don't get me wrong, it was good enough for me to buy one, but there are certainly a few things Subaru could still learn a few things from the Germans....
bemani Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 the owner's manual has a section for home link, it is as if it is actually a dealer/port option?
gtguy Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='Ninjapimp'][quote name='avarice']Lets see... what else am I losing.... one touch windows, built in garage door opener, slightly nicer interior(subjective), handling(sports package in audi)... I am sure there is more if I sit down and think about it. I am gaining something that is really important to me though. 80 more HP and 80 more ft/lbs torque. To me thats something I can use every day.[/quote] Being a German convert, I too will echo (AGAIN) Avarice's comments. How I despise the non-one touch window (UP & DOWN on EVERY window). :x Along the same lines, I dislike the non-one touch open/close/up/down functional sunroof. I also would prefer the turbo to kick in much sooner. Nearly 4k rpm till it spools makes alot of the power not as usable in standard driving. I also think that though the paint is nice, it's a bit thin compared to my old car. Don't get me wrong, it was good enough for me to buy one, but there are certainly a few things Subaru could still learn a few things from the Germans....[/quote] Roll smoother onto the throttle. I felt the car (a GT) had usable power from anything north of 1500 rpm. Subaru's turbo ECUs don't like having the pedal mashed. They will respond if you are already on boost, but if you aren't and you mash the throttle, the car just sits there. The GT demands that you be smooth, like the WRX, for it to give of its best. If your turbo is kicking in around 4,000 rpm, have your ECU's operation checked. That's an abnormal amount of lag, particularly for a car that everyone has noted the broad, seamless power curve (except for Sam Itatani at Road & Track, whom I also suspect just mashed the throttle). I rented an Altima which had the one-touch up for both front windows, and it was nice. But when I went back to my WRX, I didn't miss it sufficiently to worry about it. Kevin
Ninjapimp Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='gtguy']Roll smoother onto the throttle. I felt the car (a GT) had usable power from anything north of 1500 rpm. Subaru's turbo ECUs don't like having the pedal mashed. They will respond if you are already on boost, but if you aren't and you mash the throttle, the car just sits there. The GT demands that you be smooth, like the WRX, for it to give of its best. If your turbo is kicking in around 4,000 rpm, have your ECU's operation checked. That's an abnormal amount of lag, particularly for a car that everyone has noted the broad, seamless power curve (except for Sam Itatani at Road & Track, whom I also suspect just mashed the throttle). I rented an Altima which had the one-touch up for both front windows, and it was nice. But when I went back to my WRX, I didn't miss it sufficiently to worry about it. Kevin[/quote] I hear what you're saying and my first comment was on how linear the power felt relative to my GTI. It's just a bit to get used to. I went from 230.3 lb/ft peak (at the wheels) at 2700rpm to the Legacy's curve. It's not kicking in at 4000, but it makes peak at 3600rpm according to the manual, so that's just a bit more lag than I'm used to. I'm actually hoping that when the reflash comes out, it'll make peak torque sooner. As for the windows, I really think that it's harder to go from having it to not having it vs. not having it then getting it for short period of time! :lol:
Th3Franz Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 I wonder if there would be a way to convert the window buttons to have the automatic feature.. -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz
Ninjapimp Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 [quote name='Th3Franz']I wonder if there would be a way to convert the window buttons to have the automatic feature..[/quote] (Since I'm sure about half of my posts on this board have been whining about the windows, this will be my last comment on the topic) I'm not sure about Subaru, but there are at least 3 aftermarket co's that make window control modules for German cars. They integrate the windows into the alarm FOB, so when you leave the windows (or sunroof) open and you hit the alarm, it will close them all (and vice-versa). You've even got some modules with brains that 'vent' the windows when the interior temp gets too hot. I'm really hoping that such a thing will happen with the Scooby's as well.
SUBE555 Posted June 28, 2004 Posted June 28, 2004 About that torque peak, that doesn't necessarily mean that much, it could be nearly flat for 1500rpm above/below that, but if it's 1ft-lb higher, that's the peak. And Kevin is right about partial throttle and feeling it out. Subaru's don't like WOT as much as sine other cars. The MAF sensors actually work well with partial throttle situations.
avarice Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 The lag to me seemed very minimal and I am coming from a 1.8l turbo engine w/ a small turbo and little lag. Because of the very similar engine setups I didnt have to alter my driving style at all on the test drive. The main things I noticed were: 1. More power 2. More lower rpm torque. (I attribute this to 1.8l vrs 2.5l) 3. When its hot out and the AC is on the Audi has a "I want to stall" feeling when letting up the clutch in first gear. Didnt notice that in the Legacy
CombatCQB Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 [quote name='Th3Franz']I wonder if there would be a way to convert the window buttons to have the automatic feature..[/quote] Just looking at what the window needs to do, I don't see why not. Any microcontroller can handle the job of keeping the power to the motor until some signal tell it to stop. And that controller can be hooked up with a temperature IC, to evaluate cabin temperature and do all those other fancy stuff. Sounds like a cool project when I finally get my car.
CombatCQB Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 Here's such a unit, it should work. [url]http://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=530T[/url]
SoldonSubie Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 [quote name='avarice'][quote name='racerdave']Just out of curiousity avarice, what features is it missing, and what is it about the GT that makes it enough to switch?[/quote] The biggest thing I will miss is the stability control. I normally throw snow tires on during the winter and between them and stability control the car is effortless to drive in the snow/ice. [/quote] Avarice: Coming off an 01 OB that I frequently drove a 40 mile, one-way commute in conditions ranging anywhere from plain old ice to a foot of snow, I can honestly say you'll be fine. I drive relatively conservatively in the snow and I NEVER had a problem even with the classic "Firestone Wilderness" tires on it.
racerdave Posted June 29, 2004 Author Posted June 29, 2004 I agree that power comes on smoothly, with the most notable ramp-up beginning at 2.5k. It's a smooth engine and builds power smoothly, much more so that the WRX, which tended to deliver the boost with more of a hit.
Ninjapimp Posted June 29, 2004 Posted June 29, 2004 [quote name='CombatCQB']Here's such a unit, it should work. [url]http://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=530T[/url][/quote] Awesome. I'm definitely looking into this.
racerdave Posted June 29, 2004 Author Posted June 29, 2004 Still... Subaru should be equipping these cars with switches like this. Yes, it's a minor gripe, but my friend's 2000 Golf has one-touch up and down switches (at least on the driver's window).
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