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BulletProof-TMIC Mod - LGT, 08+ WRX


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What kind of TMIC does a Z06 use?

 

The same one the Viper uses!

 

I thought you knew something about LS motors?

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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Someone should be responsible for putting cliff notes at the front of these threads…

 

The (Legacy TMIC) Universe in a nutshell…

(What to take away from this thread in 1000 words or less)

 

 

This has been quite entertaining and the funny thing is everyone is right on most points. There are several facts to consider most of which have been pointed out:

The stock TMIC is the best for STG 2 power levels when “Bulletproofed” (VF40, VF46 or VF52 notwithstanding)

 

 

The stock phenolic end tanks resist heat soak better than anything else out there

The stock phenolic end tanks leak or blow up like the Hindenburg with anything more than “stock” boost pressures (or less?!?!)

 

 

The Perrin and AVO designs are a poor compromise and (the designs) just plain suck. (Too short runners for their size hence their crappy cooling efficiency) They are the sole reason along with the Hindenburg end tanks that have driven people to FMIC’s that may not necessarily need them (and all the hassles that come with them) at the power levels that they are running. (I’ll throw <330WHP out there for a #. Your mileage will vary)

 

 

The only good aftermarket implementation that fits the Legacy/09+WRX is the Process West TMIC with its longer tube runners to better cool the intake charge with less restriction. NOW WHERE IS THAT LEGACY SPECIFIC SPLITTER THAT WE HAVE BEEN TEASED ABOUT FOR MONTHS!!! ;)

 

 

No, you do not want to somehow use your stock endtank reinforced TMIC with that new GT35R kit. I could see that grenading the endtank in spectacular fashion. You can only suck so much air through a fixed size straw. Eventually you will need a larger straw to move more air.

 

 

Seeya, I want one of your kits, please can you send me the part list or bill me. ;)

 

On a final note….

 

 

Can someone get the Mythbusters in here to tap a boost gauge and IAT on each end tank and blow through it until the pressure differential becomes so great that the hot side shatters? Then we will all know what the stock core is truly capable of. In either case, the point of this thread is well taken; the stock “Bulletproof” TMIC is one of the best TMIC options for STAGE 2 POWER LEVELS.

 

 

Everyone please take a bow and hopefully no encore presentation. Heated arguments and unchecked sarcasm don’t spread knowledge. (Though yes it can be sometimes amusing which is an art that Rao has mastered over his million or so posts)

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And for you guys who use the DEI wrap. I used it on my AVO down pipe and man, it stank like burnt animal fur for a week. I think people drove in the opposite direction just to get away from the stench. It is rated for around 1700F (I'll verify) continuous which the DP should not see in a DD setup. The pop rivets on the firewall were melting from the heat coming off the CAT on the AVO DP. I eventually encased the DEI wrap in boiler conduit to add additional protection and keep the wrap from peeling off. Yes I am schooled in the ghetto Home Depot modding too. (Hangs head in shame) ;) Edited by Mortal2None
Forgot to mention the firewall
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The 3.0R Limited was a magnificent car. But, especially after my LGT, boring to me.

 

I'm back to having fun with almost the same car as my 05 LGT... only better for me. The new WRX, as you know, is just a shortened Legacy platform with a different top... and for 2011, wider stance. It handles better than my LGT did with coilovers. Stage 2 power with no more than an AEM CAI and Cobb and SPT exhaust blows my Stg2 with meth LGT away, by quite a bit. It's the same car as the Legacy I loved, but everywhere I look, though it's the same... it is different in subtle ways, improved and not needing immediate assistance.

.

 

Quote of the day.....I knew you would be back :spin::);), any pictures of the car?

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The Perrin and AVO designs are a poor compromise and (the designs) just plain suck. (Too short runners for their size hence their crappy cooling efficiency) They are the sole reason along with the Hindenburg end tanks that have driven people to FMIC’s that may not necessarily need them (and all the hassles that come with them) at the power levels that they are running. (I’ll throw <330WHP out there for a #. Your mileage will vary)

 

That's not true. The people saying the Perrin and AVO intercoolers have "crappy cooling efficiency" don't know what they are talking about. Everyone who has said something to that effect has made the incorrect assumption that the new core is not internally finned.

 

In either case, the point of this thread is well taken; the stock “Bulletproof” TMIC is one of the best TMIC options for STAGE 2 POWER LEVELS.

 

It's an option, but you do have higher power capacity with an aftermarket TMIC. If you just want the car to hold together and don't want to spend money, then this is a great solution. Or if you are concerned with weight, because I know that matters to some people.

 

On an LGT, there are well documented gains to be had from a TMIC upgrade.

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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That's not true. The people saying the Perrin and AVO intercoolers have "crappy cooling efficiency" don't know what they are talking about. Everyone who has said something to that effect has made the incorrect assumption that the new core is not internally finned.

 

 

 

It's an option, but you do have higher power capacity with an aftermarket TMIC. If you just want the car to hold together and don't want to spend money, then this is a great solution. Or if you are concerned with weight, because I know that matters to some people.

 

On an LGT, there are well documented gains to be had from a TMIC upgrade.

 

Thank you for your qualified support. It is very appreciated.

 

However, since I am one of those LGT owners who has documented an aftermarket TMIC's effects I feel qualified to speak, not speculate. Yes, you get an extra psi of boost... woo hoo:rolleyes: ... from lowered internal resistance, at the expense of a) innate cooliing capacity, and b) much greater heatsoak (leaving the enormous differences in fitment, cost, etc. out for the moment). In the final analysis the biggest attraction when I got my aftermarket TMIC was, it was unbreakable.

 

That was before the BP Mod. Now that a stock TMIC can be used with any boost, in the context for which it was designed, i.e., out on the road instead of sitting motionless strapped in place on some rollers, owners find the stock TMIC works perfectly in any real-world endeavor. That includes power levels no stg2 LGT can approach, ~300 whp. Until now that couldn't happen and an aftermarket IC HAD to be employed, thus years of "data" supporting a forced choice.

 

Mark my words... in time it will come to be a known fact that the OEM TMIC, BP Mod reinforced, is superior to the common large, heavy, heat soaking anchors as THE choice for a Daily Driver, including occasional track time.

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That's not true. The people saying the Perrin and AVO intercoolers have "crappy cooling efficiency" don't know what they are talking about. Everyone who has said something to that effect has made the incorrect assumption that the new core is not internally finned.

 

 

 

It's an option, but you do have higher power capacity with an aftermarket TMIC. If you just want the car to hold together and don't want to spend money, then this is a great solution. Or if you are concerned with weight, because I know that matters to some people.

 

On an LGT, there are well documented gains to be had from a TMIC upgrade.

 

You are correct in that they can make more power (Bigger straw/more flow) but the straws are too short (cooling efficiency) for their size. (Regardless of the internal fins) A heat soaked, high flowing, inefficient TMIC sounds like a disaster in the making given the right conditions.

 

My Perrin TMIC heat soaks like mad but I had to put it back on since my stocker started leaking. (Heat soak was much less of an issue with the stocker) The only thing i could think of to make the Perrin less heat soak prone would be to weld a tank to the bottom of the "hot" side and tap two holes and run a pump to a front radiator. (and put a ton of heat barrier material around it) A new air to air/water to air hybrid TMIC setup? Hmmmm... ;)

 

Maybe I'll dyno my new setup with both the perrin and the modded stocker. I'm still curious what the flow limit is on the stocker.

 

Please remember though we are talking about daily driving here and the original point is that the modded stocker is ONE of the best for a DD stg 2 car. I think you can make an argument that the Perrin is only useful for DD'ing in the dead of winter. (In freezing temps) It plain sucks in the summer.

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My car loves building boost. In fact we had a hard time keeping it to NOT overshoot the targets and hit as high as 19PSI at times. On the stock VF40 with the stock downpipe. I am momentarily not running a heatshield on the turbo. Just today, for shits and giggles I sat idling for about 10 minutes. It was 73* outside, the temps climbed by about 1 degree per second up to 100*, then from there on continued to creep to 130*. I got moving and it took just about a minute to get back down to within 10* of ambient temps.

 

I have a black Perrin TMIC. The car boosts better than on the stocker and I don't have to worry about cracked endtanks. Running the same tune right off the bat when we swapped the TMIC we could see gains. Instead of the car just tickling the target boost, it overshot it by a solid 1PSI. So we had to work at getting boost under control, which we did. She loves to sit at around 18PSI. In the summer, datalog after datalog back to back in 3rd gear, 80 degrees outside and at most I saw a drop of 2PSI IIRC.

I realize my experience is anecdotal. I did not extensively test the two TMICs back to back. I only ran Stg2 on the stock one for 2 weeks before I swapped it. But, forgive me if I fail to see the "Perrin/AVO suck" part.

I understand a TMIC is inherently of an inferior design than a FMIC for performance. But, at least to me and in my experience, aftermarket >>> stock.

Edited by fishbone
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My car loves building boost. In fact we had a hard time keeping it to NOT overshoot the targets and hit as high as 19PSI at times. On the stock VF40 with the stock downpipe. I am momentarily not running a heatshield on the turbo. Just today, for shits and giggles I sat idling for about 10 minutes. It was 73* outside, the temps climbed by about 1 degree per second up to 100*, then from there on continued to creep to 130*. I got moving and it took just about a minute to get back down to within 10* of ambient temps.

 

I have a black Perrin TMIC. The car boosts better than on the stocker and I don't have to worry about cracked endtanks. Running the same tune right off the bat when we swapped the TMIC we could see gains. Instead of the car just tickling the target boost, it overshot it by a solid 1PSI. So we had to work at getting boost under control, which we did. She loves to sit at around 18PSI. In the summer, datalog after datalog back to back in 3rd gear, 80 degrees outside and at most I saw a drop of 2PSI IIRC.

I realize my experience is anecdotal. I did not extensively test the two TMICs back to back. I only ran Stg2 on the stock one for 2 weeks before I swapped it. But, forgive me if I fail to see the "Perrin/AVO suck" part.

I understand a TMIC is inherently of an inferior design than a FMIC for performance. But, at least to me and in my experience, aftermarket >>> stock.

 

 

The design sucks. :)

 

They do the job but the heatsoak is a big issue for me. They will make more power because of the larger runners but the runners are too short to cool efficiently in relation to the runner diameter. (And that has a huge impact on cooling efficiency) The runner length is no different then the stock one but the runner volume is much greater. (if you increase one you must increase the other) The Process West WRX (Legacy fitment) is the only TMIC that had this in mind and they redesigned it based upon what could be done with the space allowed under the hood. (Instead of just copying what was already done. Tho in this case, I wouldn't mind someone copying PW to get the price down) Sure just driving at highway speeds constantly it works fine, but stop for a minute and its all downhill from there.

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They will make more power

And that is what I am focused on. They heatsoak faster, but they also cool down pretty quick at least in my experience. A 50+ degree drop in less than 60 seconds is pretty decent imho. If you're hitting light after light in the dead of the summer you're not going to put that power to any use anyway. And if some clown next to me wants a go and I just happened to be sitting at that light for a couple minutes, a good'ol AWD launch settles it quick and ought to be enough to overcome the heatsoak.

There are so many variables and scenarios that nobody can confidently say with authority upgraded TMICs suck. We hit triple-digit temps in Nebraska. If it's good enough for me, I'm sure it is for others as well.

Could things be better? Yes, with a FMIC. As it stands, I see zero reason to go with one at Stage 2.

Edited by fishbone
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And that is what I am focused on. They heatsoak faster, but they also cool down pretty quick at least in my experience. A 50+ degree drop in less than 60 seconds is pretty decent imho. If you're hitting light after light in the dead of the summer you're not going to put that power to any use anyway. And if some clown next to me wants a go and I just happened to be sitting at that light for a couple minutes, a good'ol AWD launch settles it quick and ought to be enough to overcome the heatsoak.

There are so many variables and scenarios that nobody can confidently say with authority upgraded TMICs suck. We hit triple-digit temps in Nebraska. If it's good enough for me, I'm sure it is for others as well.

Could things be better? Yes, with a FMIC. As it stands, I see zero reason to go with one at Stage 2.

 

 

I hear ya FB. My only point is that the design is improper and the possibility for detonation is greater on a piping hot TMIC with a runner that is too large and too short for the air to cool effectively. Please remember that the point of this thread is that a BP modded TMIC is ONE of the best, not the best for STG 2 power levels. If you want to refute that the design of the perrin design does not suck, that's fine and I can relate to that. Lets start another thread if it hasn't been bashed to death somewhere else already. ;)

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Exactly! (300 WHP on a VF52 is fairly easy on a MT)

 

The turbo that should have came on the LGT in the first place.

 

So wait... what about higher stages... 3, 4... 4.5

 

according to the "list" Mine is at a stage 4 after upgrading the turbo, fuel system, motor internals and intake/exhaust.

 

I stopped reading after the first few pages of this... not enough time to read it all. Is this bulletproof oem endtank with bars really gonna not blow apart on a stage 4 tune?

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The design sucks. :)

 

They do the job but the heatsoak is a big issue for me. They will make more power because of the larger runners but the runners are too short to cool efficiently in relation to the runner diameter. (And that has a huge impact on cooling efficiency) The runner length is no different then the stock one but the runner volume is much greater. (if you increase one you must increase the other) The Process West WRX (Legacy fitment) is the only TMIC that had this in mind and they redesigned it based upon what could be done with the space allowed under the hood. (Instead of just copying what was already done. Tho in this case, I wouldn't mind someone copying PW to get the price down) Sure just driving at highway speeds constantly it works fine, but stop for a minute and its all downhill from there.

 

The runners are larger in diameter and have cooling fin density approaching stock. So volume to surface area is actually greater than stock. Toss a heat blanket onto the turbo, and wrap the down pipe, and you have a recipe for a great setup.

 

A heat exchanger does not have to be longer if it is more efficient.

 

The hot side end tank does heat soak, but all that matters is temp at outlet. If you have consistently lower temps at outlet, it doesn't matter what the other side of the intercooler is doing.

 

A bulletproofed stock intercooler is fine if you don't want to spend the money to upgrade. You will be more efficient with an aftermarket TMIC, though. You will make the same power at lower boost.

 

I will be using an aftermarket TMIC on my stage 2 setup.

 

Ultimately, I may design my own air-water intercooler, but I will use my IPR with confidence until that day comes (if it ever does. I am plenty busy finishing my masters degree at the moment).

[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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for the price, a racer-x fmic is the best way to go... sorry, dollar for dollar, the majority of these issue we're talking about are a moot point with an affordable fmic. the racer-x doesnt require an intake, nor does it require a new coolant overflow tank.
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