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BulletProof-TMIC Mod - LGT, 08+ WRX


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I posted first here, in this thread:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/intercooler-cracks-do-151413.html

 

Another thread on NASIOC was deleted so it is no longer available, unfortunately, due to vendor influence and site rules. Hopefully the word will reach those members there that are interested, and they will find this forum. The few NASIOC members who installed this mod and created threads to show results to others had their threads shuffled off to remote corners, but at least they still exist. Be proud of LegacyGT.com.

 

This still sums the BP Mod up...

 

This simple mod is the absolute cure for the "plastic" TMIC, that makes it better IMO than the solid aluminum WRX TMIC, and I also argue that it is better than most of the aftermarket alternatives... for a street driven DD Stg2.

...............................

 

UPDATE!!

BulletProof TMIC Mod Kits now available!

 

October 20, 2012: BarManBean's Website for ORDERING your Kit: https://sites.google.com/site/bptmickit/

 

...............................

 

NOTE:

If you have the tools and skills, and are interested in fabricating your own kit...

 

The BP Mod files are still available, just send me a PM.

...............................

 

Picture of Original

1263716437_FinishedBPMod-DSC00417.jpg.68f491760f497c0ca64a7d35b6f16924.jpg

Edited by SeeeeeYa
Update on BP Mod Files
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Why better than a better flowing core with more thermal mass?
[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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Why better than a better flowing core with more thermal mass?

 

"Thermal mass" is the reason. :) In daily driving that thermal mass does just that... absorbs a large mass of thermal energy. That heat, largely from the engine, is both larger and lasts longer in the HEAVY aftermarket TMICs.

 

The single most significant power-related "benefit" of most aftermarket TMICs is the fact they have less internal resistance. That, to me anyway, signals a loss in efficiency as well.

 

Not to mention raising your center of gravity with a ton of aluminum up high.

 

I've done both. Read the NASIOC thread.

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What happened to the 3.0R. I thought you were out of the modding game ;)

 

The 3.0R Limited was a magnificent car. But, especially after my LGT, boring to me.

 

I'm back to having fun with almost the same car as my 05 LGT... only better for me. The new WRX, as you know, is just a shortened Legacy platform with a different top... and for 2011, wider stance. It handles better than my LGT did with coilovers. Stage 2 power with no more than an AEM CAI and Cobb and SPT exhaust blows my Stg2 with meth LGT away, by quite a bit. It's the same car as the Legacy I loved, but everywhere I look, though it's the same... it is different in subtle ways, improved and not needing immediate assistance.

 

My BulletProof TMIC Mod came out of my wanting to keep this car at this level. I could have had a Process West TMIC on it... but it would have just encouraged me to do injectors and pump, at least, for now, etc. This car is a blast just the way it is. With the TMIC removed as a failure element I have reason to believe I can enjoy my car for a good time to come without a known worry. Since my 05 LGT shared the same TMIC I thought it might be of interest here.

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It is at least better than jbweld... Did this cause any fitment issues with the engine cover?

 

Didn't know the WRX came with an engine cover...:confused:

- Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum -
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Didn't know the WRX came with an engine cover...:confused:

 

Nope, no engine cover on the WRX. I was disappointed at first, mostly because of the ducting. But when I saw how it worked, and later after I enhanced it, I'm happy with the WRX's nude engine bay. It's functional and easier to keep an eye on. One would have to re-engineer the LGT to make the air duct work right.

 

As for any alterations on the LGT engine cover, whatever they turn out to be will be very minor. Only the acorn nuts on the ends of the rails will be a factor, if at all. Stock TMIC, stock fitting cover, therefore stock fitting air duct.

 

The only difference is, it will never, ever, have a separated endtank.

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"Thermal mass" is the reason. :) In daily driving that thermal mass does just that... absorbs a large mass of thermal energy. That heat, largely from the engine, is both larger and lasts longer in the HEAVY aftermarket TMICs.

 

The single most significant power-related "benefit" of most aftermarket TMICs is the fact they have less internal resistance. That, to me anyway, signals a loss in efficiency as well.

 

Not to mention raising your center of gravity with a ton of aluminum up high.

 

I've done both. Read the NASIOC thread.

I've gone way past stage 2 but for the sake of discussion...how is less resistence/freer flow bad?

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"Thermal mass" is the reason. :) In daily driving that thermal mass does just that... absorbs a large mass of thermal energy. That heat, largely from the engine, is both larger and lasts longer in the HEAVY aftermarket TMICs.

 

It takes longer to heat soak a big TMIC, and moving more than a few mph will bring engine bay temps down to near ambient temperatures. Your argument works both ways, and in most daily drives you are moving more than you are stopped.

 

The single most significant power-related "benefit" of most aftermarket TMICs is the fact they have less internal resistance. That, to me anyway, signals a loss in efficiency as well.
You are wrong.

 

1) Bar and plate provides more cooling surface area than tube and fin. Tubes and fins have low galley surface area, and low cooling fin density. Bar and plate cores typically have more than double the galley surface area (the wet surface area, even ignoring depth) and the same or greater fin density.

 

2) The increased size of the galleys, and the decrease in flow resistance they provide, decreases pressure drop across the core as well. A decreased pressure drop means your turbo is actually making less boost at the outlet of the compressor AND it isn't working as hard to pump air through a restrictive box. This decrease in outlet pressure and decrease in resistance drops the outlet air temperature significantly. Your turbo is working more efficiently, and the system as a whole is operating at higher efficiency. Lower inlet temperatures mean more dense air, which also means greater difficulty in heating that air.

 

Not to mention raising your center of gravity with a ton of aluminum up high.
You are overstating the weight of an aftermarket TMIC. Yours, with the clamps, versus my aluminum aftermarket TMIC is really only going to be a pound or two more.

 

A pound or two, two or three inches above the center of gravity is not going to make a difference.

 

Having long hair versus a shaved head would have about the same impact on the center of gravity. Last I checked, Jenson Button had longer hair than Lewis Hamilton.

 

I've done both. Read the NASIOC thread.
Done both of what? You've stopped the endtanks from blowing off, but you aren't going to outperform a bigger TMIC.

 

This is a good cheap fix, and your execution is top notch, but it is not better than aftermarket alternatives. Cheaper, and good for people looking for less out of their cars, but not better.

Edited by BAC5.2
[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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I've gone way past stage 2 but for the sake of discussion...how is less resistence/freer flow bad?

 

The better an intercooler the lower the output temperature. The lower the temperature the lower the psi, as cooler air takes up less space than warmer air. Just because a big heavy bar and plate has a, relatively, low pressure loss does NOT mean it is more efficient. A straight pipe would enable the maximum psi output of the turbo to the engine...

 

The tube and fin design of stock intercoolers is unexcelled, size for size and weight for weight. Personal logging has confirmed my stock TMIC does just fine at high Stg2 levels, which in the WRX is in the 300 whp vicinity. Many many people are and have been happy with these cars at this level for years. Now that I have the TMIC and BPV taken care of, along with clamping all my vacuum/boost lines, I'm enjoying my car with a greater sense of security.

 

The AVO TMIC was often shown installed with an AVO turbo making 300ish whp. It's expensive. It's heavy. It is not as efficient. And it in the final analysis, despite its or Perrin's claims, becomes a bottleneck for power not much further down the road.... the road I'm not soon going down.

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It takes longer to heat soak a big TMIC, and moving more than a few mph will bring engine bay temps down to near ambient temperatures. Your argument works both ways, and in most daily drives you are moving more than you are stopped.

 

You are wrong.

 

1) Bar and plate provides more cooling surface area than tube and fin. Tubes and fins have low galley surface area, and low cooling fin density. Bar and plate cores typically have more than double the galley surface area (the wet surface area, even ignoring depth) and the same or greater fin density.

 

2) The increased size of the galleys, and the decrease in flow resistance they provide, decreases pressure drop across the core as well. A decreased pressure drop means your turbo is actually making less boost at the outlet of the compressor AND it isn't working as hard to pump air through a restrictive box. This decrease in outlet pressure and decrease in resistance drops the outlet air temperature significantly. Your turbo is working more efficiently, and the system as a whole is operating at higher efficiency. Lower inlet temperatures mean more dense air, which also means greater difficulty in heating that air.

 

You are overstating the weight of an aftermarket TMIC. Yours, with the clamps, versus my aluminum aftermarket TMIC is really only going to be a pound or two more.

 

A pound or two, two or three inches above the center of gravity is not going to make a difference.

 

Having long hair versus a shaved head would have about the same impact on the center of gravity. Last I checked, Jenson Button had longer hair than Lewis Hamilton.

 

Done both of what? You've stopped the endtanks from blowing off, but you aren't going to outperform a bigger TMIC.

 

This is a good cheap fix, and your execution is top notch, but it is not better than aftermarket alternatives. Cheaper, and good for people looking for less out of their cars, but not better.

 

Sure it takes longer to heatsoak a big ic, but heatsoak occurs most under exactly the conditions a DD operates. And because it is a big hot thing, it does not cool down nearly as quickly as the stock unit... not even close. So light to light, all things equal, the stocker is better.

 

And in the case for the DD Stg2, throttle response with the smaller capacity of the stock IC means it has the best possible.

 

The weight difference between a Perrin TMIC, for example, and the stock TMIC is significant. The aluminum used in the mod weighs only scant ounces (good point though, I'll weigh them :) ), it changes nothing.

 

Tests suggest that the STI TMIC, for example, is significantly superior to a "bigger" bar and plate replacement.

 

My modded IC is as good as this car needs at this level. "This level" is Stg2, which logs IDCs of 102% and airflow at the outer limits of this turbo. No big aftermarket intercooler needed, none wanted.

 

I'm glad you are enjoying your platform, too.:)

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good to see you here, jeff; have long missed your insight.

the wrx is an auto?

 

Five speed this time, and I didn't realize how much I missed it. I think all '11s are MT. I've installed a Mode Racing short shift and bushings, with a Cobb Knob on top.

 

I'm always "here" in a way, keeping up. In most ways my WRX and the LGT are the same. Also, there is a nicer atmosphere here that complements the good data.

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Sure it takes longer to heatsoak a big ic, but heatsoak occurs most under exactly the conditions a DD operates. And because it is a big hot thing, it does not cool down nearly as quickly as the stock unit... not even close. So light to light, all things equal, the stocker is better.

You've tested this? Ever considered the amount of surface area difference between the two? We aren't talking about solid chunks of metal here, but rather heat exchangers with air passing through them. Aftermarket TMICs have a more efficient fin design as well. You have an interesting take on fixing the leaking stock intercooler, but don't be so sure that it performs better than an aftermarket one at fighting heat soak and cooling down between stopping.

 

Also you aren't correctly describing how an intercooler works. The pressure from the turbo remains constant. The intercooler cools down the air which makes it more dense, but the pressure at which it enters the engine is the same.

Edited by Th3Franz
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I seem to recall that at least one member here has gone back to a stock TMIC after seeing the temps in the end tank of an aftermarket item.

While the big bar and plate construction in the typical AVO / Perrin (and clone) intercoolers should certainly show less pressure drop across the core, there is a question about efficiency and heat soak. When you bear in mind that an intercooler in a street car works more like a heatsink than a heat-exchanger, maybe that is more important an issue...

Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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Sure it takes longer to heatsoak a big ic, but heatsoak occurs most under exactly the conditions a DD operates. And because it is a big hot thing, it does not cool down nearly as quickly as the stock unit... not even close. So light to light, all things equal, the stocker is better.

 

When are you driving that you are stopped more than you are moving? As soon as you start moving, ambient air blows across a more efficient heat exchanger.

 

It cools down quickly enough, and will stay cooler for longer when stopped.

 

And in the case for the DD Stg2, throttle response with the smaller capacity of the stock IC means it has the best possible.
That's a ridiculous argument. The volume of the IC versus the volume of the engine is outrageous. Even if the volume doubles between the stock IC and the aftermarket one. We can even overshoot. Say the aftermarket TMIC is 5L and the stock 2.5L. It takes a whole 4 revolutions for the engine to pump 5L of air. The difference is imperceptible. Yours is the same argument people try to make for a front-mount. The difference in throttle lag is unnoticeable. There are plenty of folks running front-mounts with stock turbos.

 

The weight difference between a Perrin TMIC, for example, and the stock TMIC is significant. The aluminum used in the mod weighs only scant ounces (good point though, I'll weigh them :) ), it changes nothing.
Again, even if double the weight, it's proximity to the "no-IC" CG means it's impact is marginal. We aren't talking about 60 pounds here.

 

For a DD, you wouldn't be able to notice a difference between a car equipped with a sunroof, and one without. And if you can, then you can certainly appreciate the better intercooler.

 

Tests suggest that the STI TMIC, for example, is significantly superior to a "bigger" bar and plate replacement.
This is complete rubbish. I can't think of a single car that's made 400whp on pump gas with a stock STI TMIC. I can think of many that have done that kind of power with a big topmount.

 

Even in your Nasioc link, on the first page, is a dyno comparison. Almost 20whp from an upgraded intercooler, with no loss in power at any other zone.

 

My modded IC is as good as this car needs at this level. "This level" is Stg2, which logs IDCs of 102% and airflow at the outer limits of this turbo. No big aftermarket intercooler needed, none wanted.
See, that's really the bottom line. This solution is better for YOU. But it's not better than an aftermarket intercooler.

 

If you had a better flowing, better cooling intercooler you'd make the same power at less boost. You could still push IDC's to 102%. Less boost means less heat, means more efficient turbo, which means you aren't quite at the outer limits of the turbo. So you make more power while putting the turbo through less stress, decreasing oil temps, and improving reliability of the turbo.

 

Your logic would indicate that the stock intercooler would be better with ANY turbo. That you could put something that flows 50lb/min and be better off with the stock intercooler than a front-mount. Because the front mount has so much more volume, so much less resistance, and must be less efficient because of it.

 

IDC's aren't all that matters. At 18psi, the air going into your engine with a stock TMIC is much higher than with an aftermarket TMIC.

 

I'm glad you are enjoying your platform, too.:)
I am, and likewise that you are enjoying the WRX. I wish the Process West intercooler were a little less expensive and more readily available. That is definitely a good setup.
[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard
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