Poor performance Hawk HPS pads-need help.

[xxxPH4r40Hxxx]

My front (stock) brakes were nearly metal on metal so I decided to replace them and upgrade to Hawk HPS pads and Centric premium rotors. Afterwards, I asked myself, "This is an upgrade, WTF?!"

 

My girlfriend has a 335i and that thing stops on dime. My LGT wagon barely stops at all. Granted I believe the 335i has bigger rotors, but the LGT's aren't exactly tiny. I didn't expect BBK performance, but the HPS pads don't seem any better than stock. In fact, the only difference now is that I have more pedal. My car doesn't seem to stop any better/faster than with the stock setup (again, almost metal on metal).

 

What is wrong with this setup? I don't feel safe in my own car.

[StoplightAssassin]

1. Did you bleed your brake lines and if so did you do it correctly?

2. Braking is limited by tire grip. If you're running crap tires no brakes in the world will make your car stop any faster.

[tito_b0y]

Did you bed them in?

[meier motor sports]

sounds normal to me. as this was the same i got out of them but on stock rotors. much better high pedal with the harder pad material but the trade off is actual grip levels are down. has nothing really to do with bleeding, rotors or tires. bedding them in may help some. but it didnt for me. wait till it gets cold and snowy, then you will be in for a real surprise. i couldnt wait to get rid of mine. now i have pepboys brand pro stop rotors and ceramic pads all around. couldnt be happier. no noise, no dust and no weird quirks of a fancy brake pad and i got them at a really good price with a life time warranty. cant beat that

[goneskiian]

My wife has a 335i too and the brakes are very touchy. Like lots of brake with very little pressure on the pedal.

 

My leggy brakes are almost the opposite, you've got to push the pedal in a ways before you feel them stopping you. Some would call this mushy and I guess it feels that way after I drive the bimmer but it feels fine after a bit. They're not unsafe though and are actually quite strong.

[xxxPH4r40Hxxx]

1. Did you bleed your brake lines and if so did you do it correctly?

2. Braking is limited by tire grip. If you're running crap tires no brakes in the world will make your car stop any faster.

 

I had the brakes installed by an independent Subie shop here in town. I assume that they did it right considering the amount of STI's they work on. My tires are decent, high-performance all-season.

 

Meier and goneskiian pretty much go it right. I also did some searching yesterday on the forum and I'm not the only one that's had issues.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/hawk-hps-problem-132828.html?t=132828&highlight=hawk+hps+problems

 

Darkside pretty much breaks down the brakes.

 

I guess it is combination of pedal feel and bite. I am going replace the HPS with HPS+ or something a bit softer. I don't care about dust as much.

 

Thanks for the quick responses. As Hannibal used to say, "I love it when a plan comes together."

[xxxPH4r40Hxxx]

sounds normal to me. as this was the same i got out of them but on stock rotors. much better high pedal with the harder pad material but the trade off is actual grip levels are down. has nothing really to do with bleeding, rotors or tires. bedding them in may help some. but it didnt for me. wait till it gets cold and snowy, then you will be in for a real surprise. i couldnt wait to get rid of mine. now i have pepboys brand pro stop rotors and ceramic pads all around. couldnt be happier. no noise, no dust and no weird quirks of a fancy brake pad and i got them at a really good price with a life time warranty. cant beat that

 

Which ceramic pads did you go with? Do they bite better than the Hawks HPS's?

[GTS Jeff]

Yes, that is normal. A braking system is so much than pads and Subaru didn't exactly give us high performance parts throughout. There's far more separating the BMW from the Legacy than just pads and rotors unfortunately. Subarus have built their reputation on being rugged, reliable, and pumping out more power than it deserves. They feel like ass though. BMWs have built their reputation on precise and exhilirating driving dynamics and feel. They aren't reliable though.

 

So pick your poison! But yeah, I have HPS and it's nothing spectacular. It's just a slightly better than OEM, OEM replacement.

[subiedad51]

I noticed a huge difference when I went to the Hawk Pads. Still on the stock rotors but the I feel like the initial bite is so much better than stock.

[AZP Installs]

I'm pretty surprised at all the bad reviews of HPS pads. Back when I had no suspension work on my car I was running HPS for track days and I run in the Advanced/Instructor group with hardly any fade or anything. I usually run HPS in the winter on my car and HP+ in the summer. We've installed HPS on all our customers cars over the years as a stock replacement pad and they all have nothing but praise for them. We do however properly bed them in for our customers and also do the brake flush every 2 years as required.

 

-mike

[subiedad51]

+1 for Mike and AZP. I couldn't believe the difference a brake pad could make.

[BAC5.2]

I've never had a bad experience with HPS pads. I'm surprised to hear people say they are worse than stock!

[whitetiger]

i put HPS with centric rotors on my otbk sdn. they are good, but they needed one hell of a break-in/bed-in to get up to snuff. to thr OP make sure you do a hardcore bed-in process on them to get them right.

[doccrowley]

^^^ +1 for the proper bed-in process.

 

I just took off my HP+ pads and used the HPS instead. Couldn't stand the HP+ for daily drivers for the squeal at slow speeds, especially in a drive through window. I'll use my HP+ for track days and HPS for daily driving. Hope they also do well in the snow>>>>> We'll see about that.

[StoplightAssassin]

I don't understand the bad reviews on the HPS either, specifically the "worse than stock" reviews.

 

I've been running HPS front and rear for almost 2 years now and have been autocrossing on them at least once a month. I've never had any issues at all. In fact, I let one of the instructors who races his STU STi take a run in my LGT and he commented on the great braking performance my car has. stock calipers, stock rotors, HPS, Motul RBF 600, and Z1s

[whitetiger]

^^^ +1 for the proper bed-in process.

 

I just took off my HP+ pads and used the HPS instead. Couldn't stand the HP+ for daily drivers for the squeal at slow speeds, especially in a drive through window. I'll use my HP+ for track days and HPS for daily driving. Hope they also do well in the snow>>>>> We'll see about that.

 

i use hp+ on my LGT, they do squeal, but they are better than HPS in every single way. Even in the cold. they are just better, if you dont care about dust or noise that is.

[AZP Installs]

i use hp+ on my LGT, they do squeal, but they are better than HPS in every single way. Even in the cold. they are just better, if you dont care about dust or noise that is.

 

Agreed, I've used HP+ down to -11 degrees w/o issue...

 

-mike

[goneskiian]

The HPS are definitely better than stock. I noticed an improvement for sure.

[porterdog]

Different car, but when I went from HP+ to HPS on my turbo miata it was a BIG step down. The HP+ were dusty, noisy, and had fabulous initial bite and modulation. The HPS were clean, quiet, and might as well have been made of wood for all the feel they gave.

[05 Outback 2.5i]

We do however properly bed them in for our customers and also do the brake flush every 2 years as required.

 

-mike

 

Okay, so I have to ask, what do you consider a 'proper' bed in process? Is it different than the Hawk Manufacturer Suggestion (Below)?

 

 

1. After installing new brake pads, make 6 to 10 stops from approximately 30-35 mph applying moderate pressure.
   
2. Make an additional 2 to 3 hard stops from approximately 40 to 45 mph.
   
3. DO NOT DRAG BRAKES!
   
4. Allow 15 minutes for brake system to cool down.
   
5. After step 4 your new pads are ready for use.
   

__________________

~Scott

'05 Outback 2.5i Wagon

Willow Green Opal/ Moss Green Metallic

225/60HR16 Bridgestone G009's

[AZP Installs]

That is pretty much it, but I usually do step 2 from 60 down to 5mph and step one down to 5mph rather than a full stop.

 

-mike

[Subadozer]

That is pretty much it, but I usually do step 2 from 60 down to 5mph and step one down to 5mph rather than a full stop.

 

-mike

Like Mike indicates, and from the reading I did yesterday on the topic it's important not to actually stop when the pads and rotors are hot because it can create a spot of extra pad transfer on the rotor.

[demo243]

I ran the HPS on my previous LGT (05 Wagon 5EAT) and wasnt really impressed. They were a little better then the stock ones but barely, with a little bit better pedal feel.

 

When it came time to do brakes this summer on my new LGT (05 Wagon 5MT) I went with stop tech power slot rotors, couldn't pass up the deal I got on them, and HP+ pads. The HP+ pads blow the HPS out of the water in every aspect, except noise and dust. The bite is awesome, and when it comes time to slow the car down fast, they work. I am very happy with them. Well see how they are when it gets colder though. The only downfall though is they dust like crazy, after a 2 weeks my front wheels have a nice dark maroonish tint to them, almost looks like I powdercoated my wheels, and they squeal at slow speed stops, like rolling up to a stop sign. Drive throughs are the worst because they echo off the walls I feel bad for anyone working at the window. But i have gotten pretty used to the sound, and it only bothers me every so often. Just sucks because people Im sure think I have bad brakes when really they are awesome.

[iNVAR]

Like Mike indicates, and from the reading I did yesterday on the topic it's important not to actually stop when the pads and rotors are hot because it WILL create a spot of extra pad transfer on the rotor.

fixed

 

if you're bedding in the pads properly, they most definitely will be hot enough to cause problems if you come to a complete stop during the bed in process. after bedding in, you HAVE to drive around a bit to let them cool down.

[T-Rexky]

My front (stock) brakes were nearly metal on metal so I decided to replace them and upgrade to Hawk HPS pads and Centric premium rotors. Afterwards, I asked myself, "This is an upgrade, WTF?!"

 

My girlfriend has a 335i and that thing stops on dime. My LGT wagon barely stops at all. Granted I believe the 335i has bigger rotors, but the LGT's aren't exactly tiny. I didn't expect BBK performance, but the HPS pads don't seem any better than stock. In fact, the only difference now is that I have more pedal. My car doesn't seem to stop any better/faster than with the stock setup (again, almost metal on metal).

 

What is wrong with this setup? I don't feel safe in my own car.

 

I also do not understand the negative reviews for HPS pads. Got them on our Focus SVT with Centric rotors and they are awesome - a huge improvement over stock, and the SVT brakes were great to begin with.

 

I recently put the HPS pads with DBA slotted rotors on my Spec.B and they are also a huge improvement over stock. Pedal feel is somewhat improved, but not as good as on the SVT and far from an STI. The modulation is hugely improved over stock and so is the stopping power.

 

Do people associate the initial bite with the performance of the brakes? I personally don't care much for it at all. I want excellent stopping power and excellent modulation, and my setup gives me both. As an example, I have no trouble getting the ABS to stay on continuously when "emergency" stopping from 50 MPH down to zero. And this is with the not too crappy RE050A tires on dry pavement.

 

So people either expect too much bite or do not bed-in their brakes properly...

 

TR