New BW EFR turbos coming soon through FR!!!!

[integroid]

 

FWIW I don't really like precision turbos on our cars. You know the AMS nice V-band rotated kits? ei: 750 kit for 08+ STI? Suppose to spool as well as a 3076, but with 100 more whp potential?

 

Well, Top-Speed tuning didn't really like it, in fact they now are the sole distributor for TS's kits, but with older 3076 and 35R turbos.

 

I am very familiar with Precision Turbos....I have one on my car right now. I am also friends with the owners of Topspeed and I haven't heard them complain about the AMS kits? One of the owners had one on his 08 STi. They had a 950R kit make 600+WHP. How is that not good? The quality of their kits are the best I have seen for the Subarus. Granted this is comparing them with P&L, Perrin, TurboXS, Ultimate Racing. I have never seen a Full-Race kit so I can't comment on those.

 

Who is this TS kit you are talking about?

[integroid]

This turbo is going to be used a lot in OEM cars.

 

You are correct that an EWG will be more accurate, and make more power.

 

There are a number of points to consider:

 

1) the majority of guys do not want an EWG

2) some that do want it re-routed into the DP, this is costly, takes up space, is prone to cracking

3) TS makes the whole EWG thing even worse, one of the biggest reasons I do not have a FR TS kit on my car right now. How do I re-plumb this back into the DP, or put two mufflers on it

4) EWG is money probably more then $500 when said and done, even more for a re-plumb. TS EWG is very expensive

 

Now think about IWGs, they have a lot of room for improvement, A LOT! If you were only giving up 10 whp on a 430 whp car, would you still opt for EWG? (2011 911 turbos just did a 10.8@129, uses IWG FWIW) I think these EFR turbos will change a lot of people's minds on IWG, especially for a DD, maybe not an all out track car.

 

According to Geoff the new IWG will also be a lot more accurate, he tried to describe it to me, but I don't have every good pics, I guess we will see.

 

 

However, the biggest thing you are not really seeing (or so it seems) is the HUGE change in having the turbine wheel weighing 1/2 of an Inconel wheel. The difference here has got to be 3 or 4 times the magnitude of going from an already well designed comp wheel to a fancy billet one. Just look at any normal turbo, the comp wheel is very thing edged, obviously a lot of time went into meticulously designing it.

 

Now look at a turbine wheel, it looks archaic. We had no choice I guess due to the temps it sees, but imagine a much lighter and better designed turbine wheel. Big room for improvement.

 

I am more worried about boost control than I am about making more HP with an EWG. If you are going rotated TS, the turbo you are using can be catostrophic with boost spikes that is mostly due to the small ports of the IWG or the slow response of the IWG design in general.

[LittleBlueGT]

I am very familiar with Precision Turbos....I have one on my car right now. I am also friends with the owners of Topspeed and I haven't heard them complain about the AMS kits? One of the owners had one on his 08 STi. They had a 950R kit make 600+WHP. How is that not good? The quality of their kits are the best I have seen for the Subarus. Granted this is comparing them with P&L, Perrin, TurboXS, Ultimate Racing. I have never seen a Full-Race kit so I can't comment on those.

 

Who is this TS kit you are talking about?

 

Then spend some time with Cicio. Ask him why they are sticking with mostly Garret turbos on the AMS kit (I know the AMS kit is great quality!) He personally just told me about 1 week ago, "precision turbos are sheeet on Subarus".

[LittleBlueGT]

I am more worried about boost control than I am about making more HP with an EWG. If you are going rotated TS, the turbo you are using can be catostrophic with boost spikes that is mostly due to the small ports of the IWG or the slow response of the IWG design in general.

 

 

The a PROPERLY designed IWG will be what you want!

 

A properly designed IWG will not have boost spikes (although the tune has a lot to do with it) and will not creep.

[integroid]

Then spend some time with Cicio. Ask him why they are sticking with mostly Garret turbos on the AMS kit (I know the AMS kit is great quality!) He personally just told me about 1 week ago, "precision turbos are sheeet on Subarus".

 

 

Sorry, I thought you were saying the AMS kits in general were not good.

 

I just got off the phone with Cicio. Now that AMS is offering the HTA turbos in their kits, he is now recommending them. On certain builds the Precision Turbo performs fine.....but not on all builds. We both agreed on that and the fact that the HTA usually performs well on any car you put it on. He also thinks Twin Scroll is a waste of time on a Subaru. Everyone has their own opinions on everything so take it for what its worth. I am still interested in seeing this turbo but dont really know if I want to invest anymore money into my car. I mean how much HP am I really going to gain from swapping in this turbo? How much spool up am I really going to see compared to my current rotated kit.

[LittleBlueGT]

Sorry, I thought you were saying the AMS kits in general were not good.

 

I just got off the phone with Cicio. Now that AMS is offering the HTA turbos in their kits, he is now recommending them. On certain builds the Precision Turbo performs fine.....but not on all builds. We both agreed on that and the fact that the HTA usually performs well on any car you put it on. He also thinks Twin Scroll is a waste of time on a Subaru. Everyone has their own opinions on everything so take it for what its worth. I am still interested in seeing this turbo but dont really know if I want to invest anymore money into my car. I mean how much HP am I really going to gain from swapping in this turbo? How much spool up am I really going to see compared to my current rotated kit.

 

Topspeed is selling their kits with the Garret turbos, full release is on IWSTI.

 

At any rate, that is all moot now.

[LittleBlueGT]

EFR Hot Side (Turbine)

 

The most exciting technology in the EFR package is the low inertia Gamma-Ti Turbine Wheel. All EFR turbine wheels are made from a high performance lightweight material known as "Gamma-Ti". This material innovation is not quite metal and not quite ceramic, it is considered an "inter-metallic compound". Comprised primarily of titanium and aluminum (titanium-aluminide) with other trace elements, the Gamma-Ti turbine wheel is so light it's nearly the same weight as the forged-machined aluminum compressor wheel. This approximate 1:1 turbine:compressor weight ratio dramatically improves turbo response. Further strength benefits are realized at high temperatures as Gamma-Ti gains ductility and exhibits very high stiffness-to-weight ratios with good vibration damping characteristics. The EFR debut marks the first time Gamma-Ti has been offered to the public across a range of turbine wheel sizes and at an enthusiast's price point.

EFR Gamma-Ti Turbine wheels come in six sizes: 55mm, 58mm, 64mm, 70mm, 74mm, and 80mm OD (turbine inducer diameter) and utilize the latest generation Fullback/Superback turbine wheel blade aero designs specifically tailored for high turbine efficiency and high flow at elevated boost levels. The fullback wheel hubs employ a full aerodynamic back-disk, meaning that the hubline extends all the way to the inlet tip. This feature allows for incredibly smooth (low energy loss) guidance of exhaust flow out of the housing and into the blade channels. Going one step further, the Superback shape adds a curved profile to the backdisk and effectively lowers centrifugal stresses - improving stability at elevated rotational speeds. Impossible in the past due to material stress limitations, the combination of Gamma-Ti and the exciting new .fullback/superback. design works in concert to allow best possible efficiency, high speed capability and durability.

 

 

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-overview-1.jpg

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-overview-2.jpg

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-overview-3.jpg

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-turbine-1.jpg

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-turbine-2.jpg

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-turbine-3.jpg

 

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-turbine-4.jpg

[LittleBlueGT]

There are (4) investment cast stainless steel turbine housings that make up the initial release of the EFR series (with more to come). Sizes are available in .64 A/R T25, 0.83 A/R T3 and 0.92 A/R internal WG or 1.05 A/R external WG T4 twinscroll footprints, all use a 3" Vband outlet. Stainless steel is a superior material choice for manifolds and turbine housings in turbocharged engines which operate at extreme EGTs. From a performance standpoint, the combination of material properties and thinly cast wall thickness allow less heat energy to escape AND are lighter weight while also being more crack resistant. The investment casting process results in a perfectly smooth surface finish that resembles a ported/polished cyl head and serves to lower gas friction losses - all while looking beautiful in the engine bay (a perfect compliment to the Full-Race header it's attached to). Stainless Turbine housings offer exceptional corrosion resistance at elevated temperatures - far superior to rusty/corroded cast iron housings we are used to seeing in the past. These turbine housings are truly fit for street use, road racing, or even endurance racing and when polished they look like modern-artwork.

 

 

I still don't quite get how the IWG works exactly, this pic has me a bit confused:

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-wg-1.jpg

 

http://www.full-race.com/img/articles/efr-turbos/efr-wg-2.jpg

 

 

 

 

The optional EFR internal wastegate is truly designed for high flow, even for big-power setups. EFR optional internal wastegates are aerodynamically-optimized to offer the same performance as an external wastegate recirculated back into the downpipe - no 90 degree corners here. This is a real "value" feature of the EFR program, particularly in the case of twinscroll applications which require (2) external wastegates, (2) manifold wastegate ports (2) dumptubes for maximum performance. Furthermore, the manifold fabrication and installation are both simplified with the wastegated EFR models. Boost levels can be easily adjusted by swapping adjustable wastegate canisters available in three different spring rates/boost levels. Lastly, different turbo clocking positions are easy to accomodate without changing the wastegate bracket. This is because the bracket is bolted to the bearing housing backing plate - not to the compressor housing as is the case with most internal WG turbos. For space constrained applications which can not fit the EFR internal WG or Hardcore racers that want to keep their dual external wastegates mounted to the exhaust manifold - you can do that too!

[LittleBlueGT]

More info is available here:

 

http://www.full-race.com/articles/borgwarner-efr-turbos.html

 

 

Just posting what think you should read:

 

Subaru

 

 

• Subaru Rotated - EFR turbos are compatible with Full-Race's Subaru twinscroll kit in both Internal OR External WG configurations.
  
• Subaru Stock Location - EFR .64 A/R singlescroll Internal WG turbos will be released by Full-Race in configurations that are bolt-in for stock location subarus **requires 3" vband downpipe**
  

[integroid]

What is the release date of the new turbo line? WHen do you think Full Race will have the TS Kit available for sale? Tks for posting all this info up.

[LittleBlueGT]

What is the release date of the new turbo line? WHen do you think Full Race will have the TS Kit available for sale? Tks for posting all this info up.

 

IDK, I think in November.

 

On the bright side, this is not some little aftermarket thing, so things may actually be on schedule.

[sumfoo1]

.64 is tiny... :-( i'll have to get a t4 twinscroll header it looks like... shucks

 

PS RELEASE THE M-EFFING COMPRESSOR MAPS ALREADY!

[LittleBlueGT]

.64 is tiny... :-( i'll have to get a t4 twinscroll header it looks like... shucks

 

PS RELEASE THE M-EFFING COMPRESSOR MAPS ALREADY!

 

keep in mind it is just a ratio.

 

ie: .63 a/r on a 35R is a lot bigger then a .63a/r on a 30R

[Full-Race Geoff]

He also thinks Twin Scroll is a waste of time on a Subaru.

 

[sumfoo1]

any dyno graphs on a subie gonna be released any time soon?

[wpgspecb]

do i make the cheque out to you littlebluegt or ... ??

 

haha

 

im so into this, glad I waited to do anything to my car

[Sarg]

So any pics of the twinscroll internal gate housings or do we have to wait till Nov 2?

[NSFW]

any dyno graphs on a subie gonna be released any time soon?

 

+1

 

I am really curious as to whether the design changes make a significant difference in practice. The big question in my mind is at what RPM the 400whp version (or whatever is closest) hits peak torque and/or full boost.

[ClimberDHexMods]

+1

 

I am really curious as to whether the design changes make a significant difference in practice. The big question in my mind is at what RPM the 400whp version (or whatever is closest) hits peak torque and/or full boost.

 

Ditto on the 35R / S300 comparable unit, in IWG TS configuration

 

Geoff says a spec and price list will be posted no long from now. Excited for the Internet to explode with all sorts of SEMA news, around the same time. Who else besides BW has been dreaming up innovations?

[Boostin1657615274]

PS RELEASE THE M-EFFING COMPRESSOR MAPS ALREADY!

 

They probably won't release compressor maps. Why should they? Compressor maps cost money to put together. And for every person who won't buy a turbo because there are no compressor maps, there are three people who will buy a turbo based on hype alone.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Because if these are going to be produced to the OEM scale that some have indicated, then it would be following past BW behavior to release a comp map for each size family.

[LittleBlueGT]

The big question in my mind is at what RPM the 400whp version (or whatever is closest) hits peak torque and/or full boost.

 

I am sure in TS IWG config it will be much better then anything we have seen in the past.

 

But remember what I said earlier, that huge rotating mass reduction is going to pay dividend on time to boost, which won't show up so much in a 13 second dyno run, but will make a substantial difference in lower gears on the street, where it actually matters.

 

Check out this guys set-up with a FR TS on 93 pump & 109 (whom I like to take a small amount of credit for his decision ): (then imagine this set-up with a 500 rpm better power band!)

 

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f91/armyssoldierboy/My%20STI/24and28psi.jpg

[ClimberDHexMods]

I am sure in TS IWG config it will be much better then anything we have seen in the past.

 

But remember what I said earlier, that huge rotating mass reduction is going to pay dividend on time to boost, which won't show up so much in a 13 second dyno run, but will make a substantial difference in lower gears on the street, where it actually matters.

 

Check out this guys set-up with a FR TS on 93 pump & 109 (whom I like to take a small amount of credit for his decision ): (then imagine this set-up with a 500 rpm better power band!)

 

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f91/armyssoldierboy/My%20STI/24and28psi.jpg

 

What turbo is this?

[LittleBlueGT]

What turbo is this?

 

 

3076 HTA FR TS w/ a HFC (TTBOMK). 1.06 a/r turbine housing.

 

Pretty nice, eh?

[Full-Race Geoff]

compressor maps will definitely be published!! im working on putting the next article together with nomenclature updates and specific turbo dimensions with fitment notes. end of this week it will go online, and should answer all pre-sema questions