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I don't like the Cossie piston kits. The pistons themselves are very good, but the rings are very thin. Fine for a race car but in street use I've seen them wear noticeably within 20~30,000km. If you're looking for a quiet forged piston I think the Mahle 4032 kit is the way to go.

 

 

Sent from some electronic device.

Edited by fahr_side
Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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That's not my experience. In the normal run of things, you run the same radial tension on the rings no matter how thick they are. Thinner rings therefore have more pressure on them per unit of contact area, which helps with sealing but increases wear while drag remains the same. YMMV and all that but I've seen several carefully built motors using Cossie slugs come back with oil consumption and low compression after just 20~30k at the 430whp level. Maybe they last longer at lower power levels but I can't speak to that. At lower levels and more street use I'd go with the Mahle items for the lower expansion and wider rings.
Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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I have the least amount of problems with cosie pistons than any other with my customers. I use them as an upgrade option from pretty much everything else.

 

I have a set of the 9.2:1 in my own motor and it's been running strong for 6 years.

(Although something happened with the company about 3-4 years ago and things don't seem the same)

 

 

 

A full Cosworth branded block is not worth it. Just too much $$ for what you get.

Edited by mwiener2

(Updated 8/22/17)

2005 Outback FMT

Running on Electrons

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  • 3 weeks later...

Manley, with their offset wrist pins seems to be the clear way to go but,

my builder is steering me toward JE pistons.

JE does not state anywhere on their catalog that their pistons have offset wrist pins but when I called them they claim a ~0.8mm offset...

 

I am planning to get the best possible P-W clearance -

some have survived using 0.0025" but I expect to generate north of 500whp (60lb EFR 7163 TS turbo on e85)

so perhaps 0.0028" might be more conservative -

Equilibrium Tuning claims success with this clearance at my power levels, and that is in a racing application whereas I do not plan to race.

My builder prefers 0.003", I guess I cant blame them for being cautious- its not their engine that is going to sound like a tractor every morning :)

 

Additionally, I plan to WPC treat my pistons, and maybe also the cylinder bores (just need to confirm that the ring break-in will be unaffected.)

 

And, on top of the WPC, I had hopped to add a APC abredable coating by line2line but it looks like they media blast the surface for better adhesion, \

which will strip the WPC treated layer...

I am working with them to try to experiment without media blasting...

 

Anybody would like to chime in, share their experience with any of the above and offer suggestions? Thanks!

Edited by KGB
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Been happy with my je pistons with .0025 clearance. I don't recommend going much larger than that on a street car especially with e85. E85 is less heat, less expansion, you don't need to go above .0025 but listen to your builder and what they are capable of. Edited by Th3Franz
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Thanks, Th3Franz, I agree, on e85 the engine runs cooler,

but my builder was hard to convince to go under 0.003" - I'll be lucky if I get 0.0028"

 

Q: How much chp/whp do you generate?

I plan on 500+whp on e85, hence need to be a bit cautious...

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Alex on Nasioc got north of 600hp on his TS 7163 low mount so 500whp on e85 should be no problem, if you got a motor that can handle it.

FYI: My 500hp built motor could not - it decided to blow up at ~525hp (my fault) giving me a chance to build a better one... :)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here are the choices I am contemplating in my upcoming built, including motor hw, supporting mods, turbo choices, etc. for all your review and comments:

 

My two objectives for the upcoming build are:

 

A: better Spool / low end response (over my current EFR 7163 SS) for daily driving and,

 

B: Reliability.

 

I would like to present these as a challenge to build up the most Awesome motor for daily driving yet capable of 500whp and last 100K, assuming all proper maintenance and no racing and other abuse.

 

I am willing, within reason, to spend the money to support this endeavor.

 

With these two (above) objectives in mind,

I have been contemplating how to help my motor to achieve

best possible boost threshold and low end where I seems to be

doing most of my daily driving. Here is what I came up with:

 

Currently, using the SS 7163 I seems to be spooling up at ~4,200rpm, at least that is what it feels like on my 5EAT car with higher stall TC

 

1. switching to a 7163 twin scroll version should lower the spool threshold by ~200-250rpm, at a cost of $2-2.5K - basically ~$1K per 100rpm of spool advantage...

 

2. I am warming up to to a possibility of stroking up my motor with a 83mm Scat crankshaft to increase my rod ratio and displacement to 2.6L

 

This 4% increase is not large but should get me another 100-150rpm in spool. again the ROI seems to be in the ballpark of $1K per 100 rpm of spool.

 

Q: What are the downsides of stroking the engine?

I am not worried about top end limitations, but does it affect reliability / lifetime?

 

3. There seems to be some oppt to increase the area under the curve using Custom cams. But none of the aftermarket vendors offer off-the-shelf cams designed to optimise VE at the low rpm range - all are focusing on optimising VE between 5K - 7Krpm with the only differentiator is how much penalty one has to pay at the bottom end for better VE near redline.

 

However, there is a cam - based solution - get custom cams specifically optimised for my goal.

I spoke about it with GSC - they seems to know what they are doing and got a solution but, it may take lead time...

Another, slightly more interesting approach is to stagger the two Intake lifters in time using a

"tri flow" cams such as offered by Coltcams.com:

http://www.coltcams.com/html/tri_flo...logy/index.cfm

 

Colt seems to be regrinding the OEM cams - what do you think about this? Any issues?

Here is an example based on tri flow cams:

 

http://www.performanceprobe.com/foru...ad.php?t=50037

 

I expect that there maybe ~100rpm worth of spool one can get employing custom cams custom optimised for Low End, before I start paying a penalty in the midrange.

Again, the cost is ~$1K for a 100rpm of spool advantage...

 

Q: aside from GSC and Coltcams, has anybody had good experience with other vendors designing and grinding custom cams per my low end objective?

 

4. The next big opportunity to improve spool & low end lies in scaling down the primary & secondary runners on the TS exhaust manifold and the TS UP.

 

Full Race's awesome manifold already seems to be using relatively ~36mm primary runners and ~41/41mm secondaries and tertiaries.

(the exhaust port ID's on the EJ25 motor appears to be 40mm, right?)

 

I got to assume that FR has optimised their manifold kits to provide restriction-free flow for the biggest EFR 84lb -94lb+ turbos which are the TS turbos which were released first, years before the TS 7163 was released, right?

 

Such design can't possibly be optimum for spooling up my (relatively) smaller 7163,

how can it?

 

I am presently trying to see if I can get a ~20% smaller ID (cross-section) runners.

Afterall , FR is making their manifold from scratch and it's a ~6 week lead item which will probably pace this project anyway...

 

I am convinced that properly tapered, 20% narrower version of the Full Race manifold will gain me ~200rpm in faster spool, with little to no penalty below 6,500rpm.

Since its made to order, and at a great expence, why not get the best for my objective?

 

What else can we consider?

 

How about a EJ255 to 257 swap to take advantage of the variable exhaust timing?

But is it actually possible, HW and ECU - wise?

Based on the many EJ257 dynos I seen seems these have noticeably faster spool over the same/identical EJ255 setups

so I am assuming that having Dual AVCSs will help Paul to eke out slightly better spool, right?

 

Anything else?

 

 

From the Reliability perspective;

 

I am thinking of WPC treating most, if not all, of the motor's bottom end -

(the only big decision here is if we are going to splurge for WPC treating the bores?)

 

Clearance - wise,

given that on Cal91 we are probably going to limit boost to ~21psi and on

e85, which is a "colder" fuel we'll be at 25-27psi,

I think we can risk going for narrow clearance

to minimize piston slap and the wear that goes with that.

Equilibrium Tuning has successfully demonstrated that 0.0028" is safe on a well honed motor using 2618 pistons.

In fact they saw little to no wear effect using 0.0025" clearance, even though both were raced & abused - something I do not plan on.

In this matter I defer to the motor builder's judgement, but wanted to ask how would ppl feel about a ~0.0028" clearance?

 

Oil:

Orbit Oil pump or an 11mm OEM upgrade.

 

Since most of the wear can be expected to take place during the first cold start of the morning, while we are putting the motor together, we add the OEM engine block heater and/or auxiliary oil pan heater? I can then plan to turn these on remotely ~1hr before I start the car.

 

I also plan on a remote starter - what can ppl recommend?

 

Also, I think it might be valuable to get an Oil Pressure monitor/gage, preferably one with a warning light indicator, so if there is an issue I can see it and take action.

It'll be awesome if it also shows oil temp too

 

How about a knock warning light? So I can back off in case I got bad fuel...

Any other parameters important to monitor?

 

Thank you all in advance for your suggestions & feedback :)

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http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/FMTDyno.jpg

 

 

This motor has basic upgrades. (9.2:1 CR) There is no headwork.

 

Just a fancy turbo kit with a very basic turbo. (GT3076)

 

You're over thinking and about to over spend. The more aftermarket and "race car tech" you go, the less reliable it will be.

(Updated 8/22/17)

2005 Outback FMT

Running on Electrons

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I don't think you'll get 500whp from the 7163. We have a GDB here with an 8374 that does 480whp on meth and stock cams, so E85 may get you the rest of the way.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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I agree with mwiener. Stick with proven parts. If you are not racing, 2618 pistons may not be your best choice. For 500whp, 4032 alloy would be suitable, allows for tighter clearances due to less expansion, and still holds up to abuse. I run 2618 with .0025 in PTW clearance. Haven't done a track day yet with it but it was built with that in mind.

 

Also, if you run higher compression, that will help your spool and low end. on 91 you will have to limit the peak boost, but area under the curve will shift left. Realistically will you run E85 90% of the time?

 

I run GSC S1 cams. They help the mid range quite a bit and seem to match nicely with the 7163. Take a look into these some more.

 

Smaller primaries can help. Look into the size of the VF36/VF37 twin scroll primaries as a rough guide and see if you can duplicate it. To me absolute boost threshold is not a big deal. 100-200 rpm is not a big difference. Low spool-up time and quick transient response are what I am after and I have been happy with that so far.

 

Atomization difference between ID1300 and ID1000 would be negligible.. the IPW is so small at idle or low loads there wouldn't be a difference for those injectors.

 

EJ257 with Dual AVCS.. The dual AVCS cars all run CAN bus ECUs. You would have to rewire your entire car to make it work with a stock ECU from one of those cars. You may be able to go standalone to control dual AVCS heads but that is extra wiring and a lot of expense. Dual AVCS spool vs single AVCS spool with identical setup and same ambient temperature isn't that much in my experience.

 

I guess I need to finish tuning my car, share some logs and dyno sheets and we can work from there.

Edited by Th3Franz
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Thanks guys for all your feedback.

 

mwiener2 - I like your graph, it looks very similar to my 7163 on e85

(BTW, I went to Boulder High, still live in Boulder p/t. Where are you in Boulder - Gunbarrel?)

Regretfully, on my automatic car, it feels "slow"...

 

fahr_side,

check out the achivments of Alex using SS & TS 7163:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2640508

(I wish I too could risk low mount - just too much trouble and questionable reliability.)

 

Th3Franz,

thank you for your suggestions, especially re the VF TS primaries as a baseline - I'll definitely look into these.

I have had a debate about 2618 vs. 4032 pistons with Paul@Yimi - in his opinion 450whp is the upper limit of 4032 piston and he feels strongly about using 2618 pistons for my 7163 built. We are still discussing it but unless I can make a convincing argument, based on supporting data, that 4032 can support 500whp.

I personally think that on e85 (which has a cooling effect,) its will be okay but I will probably defer to Paul's recommendation unless I can find data in support of risking going with the 4032 pistons, which I much prefer.

(If I end up using 4032 pistons, what's the min clearance that is safe?)

 

Also, GSC S1 cams are also my 2nd choice after OEM - I spoke with GSC - they can grind me a custom set that will be even better for low end but the l/t is like 2-3 months - basically next year - bummer!

 

I also discussed atomization diff between iD1.3 and ID1.0 - Paul@Yimi agrees with you that the effect is negligible.

 

Q: how about using more powerful coils like the Okada Projects - they seems to speed up spool-up by ~100rpm

(but they are not cheap):

http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/27963583+w+h+q80+re0+cr1+ar0+st0/eurp_1002_05_o%2bignition_coils%2bdyno.jpg

 

Yea, regretfully a 257 swap is way to complicated in my case, automatic transmission and all.

 

Thank you all again and please keep them coming...

Edited by KGB
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Oh sorry. I saw the bit where you wanted to go high miles on this setup, but not the thread where this Alex guy is running 32psi boost. Good luck!
Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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Actual dyno, 3000 ft elevation. There is no E85 up north here. 94 gas is the best we can get.

 

 

I don't remember where I heard it, but someone was saying valid your 94 closer to our 91.

"Build" Thread <--Link

(OLD) '05 EJ255 now a '13 EJ257 Bottom End w/D25 heads (NEW)

Forever Slow

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Hello mwiener2,

 

I have been examining your front/low center mounted turbo kit - I am in awe - thank you for sharing.

 

May I please ask you to comment on its expected reliability, given that it is exposed the elements, snow, rain , mud, salt, etc?

 

I have been considering the low (side) mounted kit popular with the Racers but it involved too much body metal mutilation and its long term reliability is questionable.

But your kit is the same approach as the newer Legacy so this might be the way to go for me? It might go a long way toward mitigating my concerns about slow spool and low end response for daily driving application.

 

Any particular issues installing it, reliability, recommendations if you were to do it all over again?

 

Thanks in advance for sharing!

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