Just got new tires, now driving a boat...

[EpicRasta]

Ok heres the deal, I just put on new hankook ventus v12 tires on my car yesterday and now the thing handles like a boat. I wanted to see how it handled a little on my way to the dealer for an oil change….and now it handles HORRIBLE. Just got a call from the techs there at the shop, and they say everything is fine with the car…i.e. sway bars and all suspension components.

The tech said the suspension is probably acting that way because of the sticky tires. So here’s my question…. My road racing even is Saturday, so what should I do?? I may be able to get some lowering springs off craigslist if the seller calls me back…or I’m gonna try DS1Motorsports to see if they happen to have sway bars for our car in stock.

Can anyone else think os what the problem might be?!?! Thank you!!!

[wpmarky]

the techs are correct. if you are on stock suspension, then the sticky tires will make everything under the springs stick to the ground more while nothing else has changed to keep the stuff sitting on top of the springs from swaying.

 

That's how upgrading goes, as you install one thing, it points out the weaknesses in other areas. If you try to get springs, I don't think you can get them installed in time. The install itself takes 5-6 hours, and then you need an alignment.

 

Try to find a rear sway bar, they're usually cheaper, and only take an hour or less to install.

[ClimberDHexMods]

What tires did you have before? More grip can definitely give you more resistance to heave your car over... Perhaps consider giving it more time for you to get use to it.

[KartRacerBoy]

It's not necessarily the suspension. What do mean by "handles like a boat"? Has turn-in gotten mushy? If so, that's a prime sign of soft sidewalls in the Hancocks. I'm not familiar with the tire, but if they have a softer sidewall than the tire you replaced, that may be your issue. There are plenty of performance tires with fairly soft sidewalls.

[Kaptan]

If it is the soft sidewalls, try upping the tire pressure to about 38psi. That should firm the tires up a bit.

[GTTuner]

Forget what the door sticker indicates for inflation pressure. I use 40 psi. Just do not exceed what the sidewall says for a max pressure.

[EpicRasta]

wow, you guys are quick with the replies!!! thanks!! ok, i'll up the pressure on the tires, i've read they are kinda soft even though they are a good road tire. We'll see this is all trial and error.

 

I guess i was just sruprosed at how mushy the suspension is now. I've done springs and sways on my tC before, so i know i can do it, its just a matter of time. I'm gonna try to find a sway bar real quick i guess. i coldn't figure out which sway to get initially, which is why i don't have one on there now

[wpmarky]

If you raise your pressure for daily driving to 40, I suggest lowering it back down to a cold temp 32 for track day. It'll go back up to 42 by itself once they're warmed up after a couple laps, then just let out 1lb or 2 depending on how you want to adjust.

 

+1 to what the others said tho, what about your "handling" is horrible?

Does the car push during the beginning of your turn?

Are you unhappy with how much the body sways and leans during a turn?

Do the tires breakaway and slide quickly?

Does it take a while for the car to recover once the tires breakaway?

Is there a delay from when you turn your wheel and when the car actually turns?

What tires did you have before these Hankooks?

[EpicRasta]

If you raise your pressure for daily driving to 40, I suggest lowering it back down to a cold temp 32 for track day. It'll go back up to 42 by itself once they're warmed up after a couple laps, then just let out 1lb or 2 depending on how you want to adjust.

 

+1 to what the others said tho, what about your "handling" is horrible?

Does the car push during the beginning of your turn?

Are you unhappy with how much the body sways and leans during a turn?

Do the tires breakaway and slide quickly?

Does it take a while for the car to recover once the tires breakaway?

Is there a delay from when you turn your wheel and when the car actually turns?

What tires did you have before these Hankooks?

 

i actually haven't pushed the car that hard so i'm unsure. i wanted to make sure that the wheels were seated and there was no rubbing or anything like that. I also have a thread going about how I used my factory scion tC 18" wheels. The wheels are 18x7.5 and i have 225 R40 18's on there. Thus, i wanted to ensure everything was operating properly.

 

1) i'm not sure whether the car puses at the beginning of the turn, i'll be able to figure that out once i pick up the car tomorrow afternoon/evening.

 

2) Yes, i'm unhappy with the way the body sways, its like the rear end is completely loose....i've contacted a member on here about getting the 25mm perrin rear swaybar, as i'm concerned about the hendling on the track

 

3) not sure about the tires breaking away yet, i'll let u know after i pick up the car

 

4) same as above

 

5) same as above

 

6) i had the stock potenza's on there before (at least i think thats what came stock). these were the tires that were there when i bought the car.

[brum]

I have had those tires now for a month or two. I just ran an autox on them sunday. Started them at 36 psi all the way around, heated up and lost some pressure and was down to ~32 psi. Bumped them all up to 38 and it handled awesome.

 

If you went stock tires to these and changed the sizing then its gonna feel weird for a bit. I went stock size to 225/45/17 and the sidewalls were a little mushy.

 

And one huge thing. A friend w/ 05 Leggy Wagon and I both have a 25mm Perrin RSB and it broke 1 (each) of our rear mounting brackets. Get the reinforcement plates asap.

[EpicRasta]

I have had those tires now for a month or two. I just ran an autox on them sunday. Started them at 36 psi all the way around, heated up and lost some pressure and was down to ~32 psi. Bumped them all up to 38 and it handled awesome.

 

If you went stock tires to these and changed the sizing then its gonna feel weird for a bit. I went stock size to 225/45/17 and the sidewalls were a little mushy.

 

And one huge thing. A friend w/ 05 Leggy Wagon and I both have a 25mm Perrin RSB and it broke 1 (each) of our rear mounting brackets. Get the reinforcement plates asap.

 

 

reinforcement plates?? is this what the endlinks connect to?? I'm getting endlinks as well....

[EpicRasta]

so i can get the perrin 25mm swaybars (front and rear) with rallitek endlinks shipped by friday...suggestions??

[LRegvall]

reinforcement plates?? is this what the endlinks connect to?? I'm getting endlinks as well....

 

These aren't the end links. With a RSB that stiff you definitely need a reinforcement bracket like the AVO bracket. The mounting points for the RSB are very flimsy. Check out Rallitek's site to see them. I wouldn't run that RSB without them.

[EpicRasta]

These aren't the end links. With a RSB that stiff you definitely need a reinforcement bracket like the AVO bracket. The mounting points for the RSB are very flimsy. Check out Rallitek's site to see them. I wouldn't run that RSB without them.

 

 

ahhh yes, the reinfircement bracket.....lol u know, the reason i got this car was because of its cabilities to be a good road car yet soooo many things to imrpove upon . anyway, i'm gonna run it with the F+R sways and end links and see how she handles.... hopefully it won't break while i'm on the track...

[LRegvall]

The sways will improve the handling a lot, get rid of the heavy understeer. The brackets are an easy install and good insurance against breakage of the stock mounts. I recall seeing some posts from people who had broken their brackets. I don't know how difficult that repair was. Good luck and have fun.

[TSiWRX]

The RSB reinforcement brackets are much, much, much - get it? MUCH! - much easier to install when the factory RSB brackets have not been damaged.

 

The BL/BP's RSB bracket has been known to bend/break, even with sedate daily-driving and no impact/damage to incite such - even with a completely stock suspension setup. It's just a design shortcoming of the breed.

 

I fit the above easygoing profile. Yet, in its 5th year on-road, one of mine bent and partially tore. Let me tell you, getting the reinforcements (I went with both the AVO *and* the Perrin - double-bogey, but that's truly overkill) on, on that damaged side, took me well over 2 and a half hours. On the undamaged side? Ten minutes. I kid you not.

 

Get to these before they break/bend.

[Th3Franz]

Did someone say body roll? Yes, the stock suspension sucks. Sway bars do help. If you do springs, do yourself a favor and get better struts too, especially if you are tracking the car. Bilsteins or Konis do a great job at both street and track driving.

 

Where are you racing at?

[EpicRasta]

Ok, well after i got the car out of the shop yesterday, i decided to push it a little. Its actually not as bad as i thought, however there is a LOT of body roll. I'll be installing the perrin front and rear sways tomorrow. First impressions:

 

1) i feel that these tires have soft sidewalls which in my opinion is not a good thing; however, the tires STICK LIKE GLUE when warm.

 

2) the rear end feels like it wants to come around but never does. Its a somewhat scary feeling just knowing how sticky the tires are, because it feels like if i DID get it sideways the tires would grab too hard, and that wold be disasterous. Hopefully the sway bars will fix a lot of this.

 

3) Pursuant to the research i've done on this site, it appears that people no DON suggest running the 25mm RSB without something in the front. I believe that wpmarky stated in a post that he has or has had this as a similar set up, and suggests to adjust the swaybars as hard on RSB and soft on the FSB. suggestions?? I mean of course i'm going to be able to adjust things in between sessions...but should i start off with the RSB only?? i'm thinking no because the rear end ALREADY wants to come around.

 

4) As far as the brackets, hopefully they won't bend/brake/snap because at this point i have no other option than to use them. EVERYONE was backorderd. TSI+WRX....what do you mean by "I went with both the AVO *and* the Perrin - double-bogey"?? you sandwiched to brackets together?? How is that possible??

 

Thanx again for your help guys...this has been an exciting time :-)

[EpicRasta]

oh, sorry Th3Franz, i didn't mention, i'm going to Gingerman raceway in South Haven, Michigan. As fas as shocks/springs, i'm considering coilovers....the car is a 2006 and has 50k miles on it, so i figure its about time for struts too.....thus, its only a few hundred more for coilovers. I'll just start saving my money now :-P

[TSiWRX]

4) As far as the brackets, hopefully they won't bend/brake/snap because at this point i have no other option than to use them. EVERYONE was backorderd. TSI+WRX....what do you mean by "I went with both the AVO *and* the Perrin - double-bogey"?? you sandwiched to brackets together?? How is that possible??

 

Yep, that's exactly what I meant - I "sandwiched" my factory bracket between the other two.

 

The Perrin unit comes from the "front" of the car, the AVO's plate is at the "rear."

 

It's definitely overkill, and not necessary, by any means - but a few of us have done it, and yep, if you searched, you'll see pictures of someone's setup, just like that, too.

[JoeFromPA]

Up your tire pressures definitely....it's amazing what 6-7 PSI can do when you are running a soft, low-profile tire on a heavy car.

 

But also, remember to put 500 miles or so on the tires (at least 200 minimum) before judging them. Tires, for the most part, will NOT feel "right" until they've heat cycled, burned off the original oils on the surface from the factory, etc.

 

A 25mm rear sway bar on a car with stickier than stock tires + stock suspension otherwise is a recipe for a snap oversteer IMHO. It's fine, but just realize that your car will oversteer far easier. Look for a balanced set of sway bars, or go with a smaller RSB, or go the proper path and get a set of real struts on there. Speaking as someone with just sway bars, it's not the end all.

 

Expect your stock endlinks to break when tracking the car on sticky tires and upgraded sway bars. Stock endlinks are twigs.

[Th3Franz]

My stock endlinks haven't broken yet.. but I am keeping an eye on them.

 

Gingerman is a fun track. I've been there a few times. If you are having trouble with oversteer, I would recommend getting input from an instructor. Sometimes not being smooth enough or taking the wrong line will upset the car and make it more likely to come around. Turns 7-9 you can carry a ton of speed if you hit the lines very well.

 

Good reminder on tire pressure. Often you can fine-tune the balance of the car by making the fronts have more pressure than the rear. Check the wear marker on the shoulders of the tires too. I dial in my pressures to be just above that mark

[BAC5.2]

Also note that tires have break-in requirements. The first 500 miles or so, they are scrubbing out finishing/mold release chemicals. It's not uncommon for tires to handle poorly until they are run-in. I think standard practice is to simply go easy on new tires for a few hundred miles. They should handle better with time.

[JoeFromPA]

My stock endlinks haven't broken yet.. but I am keeping an eye on them.

 

Aren't you running stock sways?

 

I'm not saying it happens to everyone, but it appears that my endlinks, running cobb sways, stock suspension, and worn out stock re92s, are about to go. They have far too much play in them.

 

And this car is relatively gently driven.

[wpmarky]

Just cuz your rear is stepping out doesn't automatically mean your car has oversteer. You can do that with any sway setup mid turn by adding throttle and turning the wheel more. With the stock sways, you have to pretty much overdrive the car into a corner to get the car to over rotate (come into a turn too fast, then slam on the brakes too late, lots of turning input, any combination of the three)

 

If you have time before your track day, I do recommend trying the rear 25mm sway only, and driving it around for a bit. I don't recommend you use it for track day however, but mostly just so you can get a feel to what oversteer really is, or can be. Then when you put in your front 25mm sway, you'll feel how the car might pushing to turns, then you can adjust the stiffness however you want to suit your driving style.

 

Whether to put the front soft or rear stiff depends on your spring rates, and your driving style. Some people with a 6k/8k setup prefer to have stiff sway in front, soft sway in back, to keep the car neutral.

 

During my last track day, I had the 22mm set to stiff in front, and the 25mm set to soft in rear. The car felt like the rear was dragging around turns (like doing a U-turn with a shopping car by pulling the front). Since then, I raised the rear height a bit on my coils, and changed the rear sway to stiff. That gave me more of a feel that I was looking for, and was easier to balance.

 

For your 1st track day with stock suspension, I would recommend setting the front to stiff, and the rear to soft. If you don't get an instructor, try to get people to ride with you as much as possible to help you with your line. Then just focus on balancing your car's weight around those turns, and you'll be going fast in no time.

 

Have fun!