AP Stage 1?

[BAC5.2]

What kind of fuel econ are you guys getting that are all stock, stage 1?

 

I'm trying an AP out for a little while, and the car doesn't feel tons faster after the flash. It does feel a *bit* smoother at low speed/low throttle, but that's really it. I didn't drive the car for about 24 hours before the map change, but I wasn't blown away by the newfound power.

 

Has anyone actually done dyno-comparisons between stock and stage 1 to verify Cobb's claims?

 

I'm using the 08-09 Legacy GT MT stage-1 map in my 09 Outback XT MT, as recommended by Cobb.

 

I've got 72,000 left on the warranty so unless the dealer puts, in writing, that a downpipe and a stage-2 map won't void the warranty, I'll wait until then to further the mods.

 

To go back to 100% stock, I have to unmarry the AP, right? The stock "style" map isn't the stock map pulled from the ECU when first married, right?

 

I assume that there is no limit to the number of marry/unmarry processes, right?

[thebigevilfoot]

I'm pretty sure a Stage 1 pulls 20-30 whp over stock, correct me if I'm wrong.

Stage 2 on the other hand is a good 50-60whp more.

[eldiablo]

I get 23 mpg on a stage 1 93 octane TDC e-tune boosting around 16psi. Never dynoed but BIG difference over stock (enough to keep me happy at stage 1). You can try an infamous tune for better results over the Cobb OTS stage 1 map.

 

Unmarrying the AP will bring you back to stock. I seem to recall there is a limit to the amount of times you can unmarry but its in the hundreds (for a v1 AP, may not be the case for a v2).

[TSiWRX]

You'll go back to your factory map, with the new AP, but even then, if Subaru wanted to look further, they'll see that things don't add up. Let me link you back to a thread which I'd answered on SubaruForester.org (which will, itself, take you back here, to one of our classic reference threads regarding the SSM3): http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f95/protune-warranty-53239/ [ - also to-note in that thread, Dan at Cobb states that they've never reached that "theoretical"/mythical reflash limit, even on their bench ECUs ]

 

There's no complete cheat - not by any of the proprietary systems, not via Open-Source - if you want to play, you simply have to be ready to pay.

 

BAC, your best bet is to find a mod-friendly dealership. Check your local enthusiast community to find one - don't trust the dealership personnel, even if you get something "in writing."

 

But FWIW, the way I see it, if a dealership/Subaru really wanted to look for evidence, you've already screwed yourself - you've already reflashed to "Stage I." No matter what, you won't be able to "take that back." You want honest? My honest answer is for you to just start playing to your heart's content, as you've already gone beyond the point of no return.

 

As for the power gains, it's all relative. No two dynos will read the same. There's a local Dynojet that'll put stock '04-'06 STis at nearly 300 wHP, and another one that'll put them at 200 wHP. Aside from dyno queens liking bigger numbers, dynos are really just tuning tools - don't get too hung-up by the numbers.

 

As to Cobb's claims?

 

Don't worry, they won't cheat you out of anything. There's too many of us Scooby lovers out here running their hardware and software for them to even remotely think that they could get away with a lie.

 

Besides, Cobb's never done any of us wrong. They won't sully their reputation over a few measly horses.

 

"Stage I" isn't that much of a difference from stock, in terms of what you'll see on the dyno, for "power." It's really more of an overall driving/feel improvement. Like brother eldiablo suggested, if you're interested, you could pursue a custom remote tune ("e-tune"), which will help to not only maximize any potential gains, but will also allow a tuner to look, in-detail, at the behavior of your vehicle after such adjustments, to further increase your safety envelope.

[dmanaenk]

Unmarrying will bring map back to stock, but keep the reflash counter higher than before. I highly doubt that Subaru would be able to deny warranty for that, since they have to prove that the damage was caused by a reflash.

 

As for mpg - depends on your driving. If you frequently floor it, your mpg will go down.

[Irimis]

Stage 1 OTS cobb tune 07-09: 4% increase in HPR

Stage 1 OTS Cobb tune 05-06: 16% increase in HPR

 

Thats a big difference and why thebigevilfoot feels a difference and the OP says its not much difference, cause well 4% is not. It will get ride of that freaking stutter thats pissing me off.

[TSiWRX]

Unmarrying will bring map back to stock, but keep the reflash counter higher than before. I highly doubt that Subaru would be able to deny warranty for that, since they have to prove that the damage was caused by a reflash.

 

Let's put on this hypothetical, then:

 

The dealer denies you warranty service, and then informs Subaru of your modifications.

 

You can then take them to court, and spend not only your monies, up-front, in terms of legal fees (which may be recovered if you win your case), but you'll also have to spend the time on the fight.

 

Yes, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act helps protect us, the consumer, but in truth, how much protection - in terms of practicality - is there? Yes, Subaru has to prove that your modifications caused the specific problem, but in the meantime, you're left with a combination of being without a vehicle, having to spend money up-front, and having to fight through the trouble.

 

What they "have to prove," they do so after the fact. In court. In the meantime, you've got to deal with the consequences while they simply deny you of services under warranty. "So sue us," is what they will say.

 

And as for denying warranty?

 

Search for godwhomismike's case on SubaruForester.org.

 

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f87/buyer-beware-install-spt-exhaust-your-09-fxt-your-own-risk-70030/

 

He's one of the "OGs" here on LGT.com, who then moved to a SH-platform FXT, and was among the first in that community to cross-adapt the WRX fitment SPT exhaust to the SH.

 

Look at his post.

 

Now look at pleiad7's reply.

 

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act sounds great on paper, but in practice, in the real world, it only goes so far.

 

If you willingly mod, then you should also willingly pay the price for doing so - it's really that simple, and "paying the price" has a larger context than just that of the dollars and cents.

 

In the real world, likely the most significant determinant as to how a modded vehicle may be "seen" in the dealership's service bay is the attitude of that specific dealership towards modding. Some dealers are more mod friendly than others - some don't even care if you're running a FMIC supporting a GT30R; and some, like the one godwhomismike ran in to, will nag every little piece. Finding a mod-friendly dealership or Service Department that is honest and willing to work with you is the first step towards a good outcome, if you want to try to "keep your warranty."

 

Look, I'm not trying to be an ass - I'm also a fellow enthusiast who's modded his car. I'm not rich, I save-up for all my mods, and I'm a DIY-wrench. And no, I'm not lucky enough to have a dealership that's all that mod-friendly.

 

All I'm saying is that if you mod, you have to be realistic.

 

You take a big step any time you touch that ECU, and while with most routine service and even warranty repairs, as whitetiger and many others with "inside experience" have stated, technicians will not necessarily probe far enough, when and if something catastrophic does happen and the dollars start adding up, it's naive to think that they won't dig deeper. And while the law may help, the actual process of seeking such protection, in the real world, is not one that's without its own costs and troubles.

 

 

----

 

 

Irimis -

 

Aftermarket tunes (regardless of tuning tool) have been inconsistently successful in ridding vehicles suffering from the hesitation/"stutter"/"studder" issue.

 

A search of the past posts here on .com will show you posts of people who've had great success, and people who saw little to no improvement, as well as those who saw some improvement, but whose resolution was incomplete or partial.

[dmanaenk]

The dealer denies you warranty service, and then informs Subaru of your modifications.

What modifications? Increased counter? And what if the car was bought used and counter might be due to previous owner?

 

I think it is highly unlikely that warranty is going be denied if the engine/tranny goes, and the only symptom is high re-flash counter. Of-course if it is obvious that there was an aftermarket DP - denial is likely.

[TSiWRX]

A mismatched checksum is evidence that the ECU has been tampered with, period. Look at the .com SSM3 thread started by whitetiger that I cross-cited as a part of my referenced post on SubaruForester.org, and look at what Jon [in CT] cited (Jon [in CT], BTW, is a true Subaru insider).

 

And what if the car was bought used, with the previous owner's mods being accountable? Again, take them to court? I again pose the same question to you - after the dealer denies coverage, who pays to get the car back on the road again, and who pays for lawyering up, up-front? And what about the time-cost of all that trouble?

 

In a world where Subaru threatens to pull powertrain warranty from the cross-application of a cat-back that's stamped with the SPT seal of approval (to say the least of denial of warranty service by the dealership, on the same), do you really and honestly think that evidence of the ECU not being Kosher will be overlooked, on a major claim?

 

These are all issues which have been probed and discussed again and again here on .com and in other Subaru communities, and the answer has been the same: there's no way to completely eradicate evidence of the ECU having been tampered with, and the denial of warranty claim is one that has to be fought after-the-fact, with costs incurred that may or may not be reimbursed later.

 

This is not what anyone may "think." These are not hypothetical situations.

 

These have proven true time and again, and it's something that anyone who is thinking about modifying their vehicle need to take into consideration and properly weigh.

 

That's the real-world.

 

And in the real-world, as I've said above and as-is cited in not only that SSM3 thread but also throughout the Subaru community, the thing that matters most is a mod-friendly dealer or dealer Service Department.

 

That's the hurdle to clear.

 

Like I said above, I'm not saying any of this to be an ass (you may have missed that part, judging by your last post-time and my last edit-time - I ninja-edited, as I took a small break in-between, my apologies ).

 

I'm simply trying to keep people's expectations and understandings grounded in the real-world.

[dmanaenk]

A mismatched checksum is evidence that the ECU has been tampered with, period.

 

Yes, but I thought the checksum problem has been solved long time ago. Both in cobb OTS maps and most opensource.

 

I agree that if someone is averse to paying for the repair out of pocket and suing after that, either for cash-flow reasons or due to aversion to lawyers, then even stage1 is risky.

[TSiWRX]

Yes, but I thought the checksum problem has been solved long time ago. Both in cobb OTS maps and most opensource.

 

IIRC, with Open-Source (as long as you remember to do it, to "back-up" your factory ROM, that is) and Cobb's V2 APs, it's the factory ROM image - whatever that's on your vehicle at the time - that gets ripped.

 

Prior to that, a generic ROM image was used by AP (and is still used by ECUTeK) for the "return-to-stock" map.

 

If you read the SubaruForester.org outlink that I cited, you'll see that Dan from Cobb still mentions that if Subaru so chooses, they can still "see" that something is awry, and given what SSM3, even in the little of what was disclosed in the thread originated by whitetiger is reportedly able to "see" it's that further CalID/checksum mismatch that's the problem.

[dmanaenk]

I don't think it's about technical capacity to screw people with minor mods out of the warranty. I think it's about the willingness. When subaru screws over someone who went stage N, with significant mods and HP gains, and then undid them after the failure and before towing the car to service - very few customers are gonna buy something else. When Subaru does it to someone who went stage1 to fix the 'stutter', not only the person who got screwed is likely to be lost as a customer, quite a few others might decide the same. And it's not worth it. I'm not even sure it is worth it for a single customer. Saving a few grand now vs keeping the customer who'll buy a few more vehicles over a lifetime? The latter might dominate.

[BAC5.2]

Well, I drove the car on my normal ~60 mile "short" commute today.

 

I can't say I was SUPER thrilled with it, but it did, occasionally, seem to have a bit more power. It seems to be down on power in 5th, requiring a bit more throttle to cruise, and a bit too much throttle to accelerate in 5th. A 4000RPM pull in 3rd (to merge on the highway) didn't feel much faster. But, that could all be in my head.

 

But, then again, it might just be that the car is smoother overall and that alone is deceiving. I guess I could figure out the "performance" log feature of the AP and do some tests. I just don't want to marry/unmarry a bunch of times to do the comparisons. Maybe I'll log a few pulls and take a look at whats going on.

[TSiWRX]

^ Smoothness will, as you said, deceive.

 

My transition to the BL was from a DSM with an EvoIII 16G. Although a very mild DSM by DSM standards, it's, nevertheless, significantly more powerful than any stock '05 Subaru (on a dyno where a stock '05 STi would put down 200/200, wHP/wTQ, that DSM put down 300/300). I was underwhelmed with my experience in the 5MT LGT that I took out for a test drive - the car that came to be Winky - until I looked down at the speedo and said "huh, that's faster than I thought I was going." So, yes, "smoothness" is very deceiving.

 

However, you also have to remember that top-end is not where this car will shine - not "Stage I," and not even "Stage II."

 

The factory turbo is just too small. It simply runs out of air up-top.

 

If you want a highway assassin, you're going to have to look at a much bigger turbo - lag be damned ("Lag? What lag? Downshift!").

 

The fun with these AWD Scoobys, until you go bigger-turbo, is all about getting the hole-shot against much higher powered competition - particularly in foul weather.

 

I don't think it's about technical capacity to screw people with minor mods out of the warranty. I think it's about the willingness. When subaru screws over someone who went stage N, with significant mods and HP gains, and then undid them after the failure and before towing the car to service - very few customers are gonna buy something else. When Subaru does it to someone who went stage1 to fix the 'stutter', not only the person who got screwed is likely to be lost as a customer, quite a few others might decide the same. And it's not worth it. I'm not even sure it is worth it for a single customer. Saving a few grand now vs keeping the customer who'll buy a few more vehicles over a lifetime? The latter might dominate.

 

Ah, I see where you're headed with this. I think that the two of us differ somewhat in our basic thinking (RE: minor mods/denial-of-warranty), but we're definitely in-harmony in our thinking of the harm that's done to Subaru's image each time something like that happens.

 

Oh, and in going back:

 

 

A mismatched checksum is evidence that the ECU has been tampered with, period.

 

Yes, but I thought the checksum problem has been solved long time ago. Both in cobb OTS maps and most opensource.

 

Your post got me thinking back - back when my wife had her then-new WRX, in 2005, I had purchased a Tactrix cable both for my own datalogging, as well as a consideration I had, at the time, of taking her 4EAT to "Stage I" with Open-Source mapping, to fight off some of the standing-start (non-launch) sluggishness.

 

A part of what made me hesitant to go that route was a checksum issue, which caused ROMs to either - and I can't quite recall - not be downloaded or uploaded correctly.

 

That issue was resolved, but I believe that the checksum/CalID issue that we are speaking of, here, in direct relation to the dealer/SoA/SSM3 "detecting" that the ECU has been tampered with, is a separate checksum.

 

As it appears in the cited SSM3 thread authored by whitetiger:

 

;655146']

 

Here's an example of the SSMIII reading vehicle information from a 2005 WRX automatic:

 

http://i4.tinypic.com/166yz41.jpg

 

 

 

The first half of the CalID is the ECU ROM identifier. The second half is the TCU ROM identifier. Below the CaLID are checksum values, designed to change if even one bit changes on the ROM. This WRX, BTW, has never had a reflash from Subaru.

 

Highlighted for-emphasis.

 

It's my layman's understanding that this checksum is what cannot be "fixed," that it will, for lack of better words, "increment" or otherwise will tell of a discrepancy.

 

The post that Dan (of Cobb) made on SubaruForester.org, coming in May of last year (thus well after the introduction of the latest AP, with its ability to rip and replace the actual ROM that's on the vehicle at the time that it was reflashed with the AccessPORT; REF: http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/595291-post22.html), alluded to the fact that there is indeed ways by which Subaru can see the discrepancy and know that the ECU has been reflashed, but it did not detail exactly how this was done.

 

Regardless, it's also interesting to again revisit what Jon [in CT] had to say about how the ECU tampering would be "flagged."

 

;655146']

It is SOA that will redflag your powertrain warranty when they discover you've reflashed your ECU, not the tech.

 

and later....

 

;657984']Nobody would receive a letter' date=' but any attempt to claim warranty service for the powertrain after an aftermarket ECU calibration was detected would be ignored.[/quote']

 

Indeed, what all this says is that anyone who is at all concerned about warranty service of their powertrain should think hard about their decision to modify their ECU mapping.

 

And at the same time, again, it's also worth once more highlighting the fact that a lot of the power rests in the hands of the dealership/Service Department: that a mod-friendly one stands at the crux of the issue.

[BAC5.2]

It sounds like the checksum changes only if the ROM is changed.

 

That means that any dealer access to turn on/off features will change the checksum, right?

 

In theory someone could unmarry an AP, and if called on it, could just say that they had had options turned on/off (such as the defrost timeout override, for example)

[TSiWRX]

^ From the community's understanding, yes, that's correct - that the checksum changes when the ROM is altered.

 

However, the catch in what you're trying is that Subaru apparently has a way of knowing when the checksum isn't "right."

 

Like I/we (community) have said, it's truly not something to necessarily worry about, unless you're specifically trying to lie to claim warranty service (i.e. powertrain claim after altering the power production of your vehicle). If you're going in to get your stereo fixed, and you're on a "Stage I" map, it's recommended that you unmarry your AccessPORT or otherwise reflash to your "stock ROM" simply to avoid the hypothetical scenario of a dedicated technician loading your vehicle with the latest ROM "fix" and thus wiping out your married AccessPORT: it's not to try to defraud Subaru.

 

Furthermore, even if you've modded extensively (in Subaru terms, that is), there still are mod-friendly dealers/dealership Service Departments who will work with you, fairly, to settle the score.