Brakes and handling weak for GT's????

[bikerboi911]

I am the proud owner of a 2005 GT limited 5-speed and absolutely love it!!!!! It's a very quick, capable, and refined car with very little disappointments... My only real complaints about this car would be the Brakes and handling. I did trade in a 2000 BMW 3 series with a bunch of suspension work and larger wheels and tires, but by far the BMW would whip the GT on a twisty back road. The Legacy handles good (not great) but requires you to be entirely too smooth about your turn in's taking away the fun of snapping the car into turns to exagerate the feeling of how fast you are going. Say you take a hard right hander and delay your turn in until a bit later to push the car a bit harder to pull higher G's just for fun, the GT likes to slide and squeal it's tires but does lose control. I do feel higher performance summer tires would help a bunch as the Bridgestones are not all that. I have had a bunch of great handling cars in my many years of driving and have had lots of practice pushing them to their limits on back roads and SCCA events alike. It just seems to me a car as performance oriented as the GT would handle better than a WRX and more like an STI. Anyone find the same complaint or a remedy without spending thousands of dollars to improve matters?

Even the brakes are a bit on the weak side for a car capable of such expedient acceleration. Anyone experience any kind of pulsations under spirited braking? It feels to me like warped rotors, it only happens under harder stops and is slight, not drastic in any way. Anyone experiment with aftermarket Brake pads such as Hawks or EBC? If you look at the fairly lengthly stopping distances in road tests by R&T and Car and Driver in comparison with all other vehicles (look at the road test summary as a reference), it does reinforce my complaint of them being a bit weak, especially for a sport sedan. I don't want to change anything drastic as of yet as I just got the car not too long ago. Any suggestions if anyone has had the same complaints and experimented would be appreciated.

Don't get me wrong and NO I AM NOT BASHING THE CAR IN ANY WAY but am just looking to transform a great car into the best all around car money can buy. I am a rather aggresive driver and that may be why others find these statements of mine to be false, I am just curious if anyone else has the same issues.

[SUBE555]

You kind of completed your own statement. The stock GT on stock (crappy RE92's) against a well modded BMW in the area of suspension and with good tires. There isn't really a comparison between a stock 'GT' type of car and a performance car tuned to your desire and needs. The RE92's are a big complaint in both handling and braking. Put some good tires on and you will immediately know a good difference in both. I would tend to say about $1,000 in suspension gear including springs for our dampers, and just sway bars as well as the appropriate tires would make an incredible difference along with the right rubber, all for about a grand. That's what I'm going to be trying out in the next couple of months. I need something for now that's still rather sensible but brings out the GT in it's name fully.

[firedawgs]

I think you will be surprised at the difference of just changing out the rear swaybar and tires.

[GTCanada]

I'll agree with you on the feel of the stock suspension and brakes. Coming from an STi suspended WRX, the GT requires a much more gentle touch at turn in and you need to be careful if doing mid-turn adjustments.

I have STi springs on stock GT struts. It has been an interesting change, one I was initially quite positive about, but ultimately they are not doing it for me. Not enough strut for the springs. Since the STi springs were designed for JDM struts I am curious as to how some of the other spring options specifically designed for USDM will work (Cobb, Eibach, etc.). Also, the lost suspension travel (1" lower with the STi's) is a negative. Compared to having the STi springs, I actually prefer stock, even though it is too soft for me, since it is a better matched combo. I might sell the STi springs and source a JDM Spec B set up. Or, keep them and just add JDM struts. We'll see.

The brakes work fine; they just have an initial softness and some extra pedal travel that is a bit disconcerting. There are threads on brake line and pad replacement that apparently make a worthwhile difference.

As others have said, tires make a big difference. You will still have the inherent softness of the suspension but you will stick much better.

Tom

[bikerboi911]

Even stock vs. stock the BMW handled quite a bit better and had higher limits. I figured the stock tires were partly to blame. As far as braking I think it may be more than just the tires as they don't seem to be as grippy or instant as I'd like. Kind of feel as though you need a heavy foot to stop and even then they feel weak. So just a rear swaybar and higher performance tires can make a huge difference????? That sounds a lot less expensive...........I like the sound of that. Would stiffer springs and a slight lowering help all that much (Eibach) keeping the struts/shocks stock? I do not want a car that rides too rough so that is a big concern as well. My BMW handled great and had very high limits but still rode relatively smooth, only slightly firmer than the GT. Anyone drive these things in snow yet with the stock tires?? How are they and do you really need snow tires if you only get 6-8" of snow at a time? Thanks for all your help....

[Xenonk]

I blame it on the difference of the tires.. BMW = Michelins, GT=Bridgestone.. there's something to be said here about that.

 

Keefe

[gtguy]

<<The Legacy handles good (not great) but requires you to be entirely too smooth about your turn in's taking away the fun of snapping the car into turns to exagerate the feeling of how fast you are going. >>

 

A smooth Legacy is a fast Legacy. The tossability factor just isn't there with this car. Tires improve much, as they are what stop the car. If you do a search, there are many people who have made improvements to their GTs, looking to address the things that bother you about it.

 

Good luck,

 

Kevin

[lemming]

OEM legacy brake pedal feel is spongy (but better than any other subie except for the STi) and the brakes are mediocre at best. not sure if new pads or a 4 piston upgrade would help this.

 

obviously the other part of braking is the tires' adhesion. the OEM tires are godawful for driving at anything close to 7/10ths.

 

plus the legacy has a weight distribution of 60/40 (f/r) which already tells you something. a priori, it's a nose heavy car already prone to understeer because of the awd system. it won't have the same tossability of any 3 series (any generation).

 

it requires an entirely new way of thinking to drive any awd car quickly, let alone the legacy. i've owned an e46 3 series and i think the car has great balance but it's way down on power --i'd rather have the power up front and deal with the OEM handling afterwards because that is much more satisfying in the long run, no?

[SUBE555]

Personally, I think the GT stock + decent tires rides and drives well (I run tire pressures of 42F/38R.) The tire pressures I run create slightly more understeer, but if you are used to it's handling, it's smoother IMO with this setup, less likely to tramline, keeps a better line, and yet can still handle decently. Now, I don't know what you are comparing setups for personally, because for one application you might want something tossable and another you don't want it. For me, my car will be set up much more for backroad driving than AutoX and tighter handling events and I will say it does fairly well stock. I want to keep the ride as close to stock height, but improve on handling and for now, I think I'm going to use the SPT/Eibach springs with my Perrin Rear Sway for starters. If I don't feel that's adequate, I'll upgrade the front sway as well and move to JDM GT or Spec B dampers and STi Pink springs.

 

I have Cobb/Stoptech Stainless Lines, Carbotech Bobcats, and Motul 600 Dot 4 brake fluid going in tomorrow. I'll give you a report how they alone change the characteristics of the car and it's braking abilities. In the upcoming weeks I'll have more stuff going in. The sway bar is already here but I'm waiting for more toys before I do a bigger install.

[lemming]

Personally, I think the GT stock + decent tires rides and drives well (I run tire pressures of 42F/38R.) The tire pressures I run create slightly more understeer, but if you are used to it's handling, it's smoother IMO with this setup, less likely to tramline, keeps a better line, and yet can still handle decently. Now, I don't know what you are comparing setups for personally, because for one application you might want something tossable and another you don't want it. For me, my car will be set up much more for backroad driving than AutoX and tighter handling events and I will say it does fairly well stock. I want to keep the ride as close to stock height, but improve on handling and for now, I think I'm going to use the SPT/Eibach springs with my Perrin Rear Sway for starters. If I don't feel that's adequate, I'll upgrade the front sway as well and move to JDM GT or Spec B dampers and STi Pink springs.

 

I have Cobb/Stoptech Stainless Lines, Carbotech Bobcats, and Motul 600 Dot 4 brake fluid going in tomorrow. I'll give you a report how they alone change the characteristics of the car and it's braking abilities. In the upcoming weeks I'll have more stuff going in. The sway bar is already here but I'm waiting for more toys before I do a bigger install.

 

there's only so much one can do for the car. it is decent and almost fluid but it will never be a handler like the 330 or rx8 can be. does that bother me?

 

not a whit. i would like it to be more out of the box, but it's already quite decent. nicer tires make a huge difference. adjusting one's driving style also makes the car more fluid and tractable.

 

does it still understeer like a pig on ice sometimes? sure. but it can still outaccelerate those two other "more focused" aforementioned cars and do things in foul weather those other two cars dream of while sleeping in dry garages during blizzards.

 

i plan to slowly upgrade the handling componentry, also, but what i learned from my STi ownership experience is: 60/40 weight distribution is still not your friend. you can work with it, but it's not an innately well handling package.

[bikerboi911]

I agree with you Lemming that the Legacy must be driven differently than say an e46 and I do realize that. I knew from the begining that the GT will probably never compare to my old BMW in handling and did not expect it to as the car had a good amount of suspension work. I was just expecting much higher limits than what the GT has. Just when it starts to get fun it loses grip relatively quickly and easily. I guess I just do want some "tossability" out of it. It just isn't the same having to be smooth as silk to keep speed in turns on backroads. If I were running at an SCCA event then yeah, being smooth is key. I just like to move along at a consistent speed with no worries of the car holding a line. It's a daily driver for me so I would rather have more tossability. I doubt I'll ever do an SCCA event with this car so I do want it as streetable as it can be. I just don't want to dump a fortune into it at this point, it's turning out to be an expensive year.

What tire pressures w/ stock tires seem to work best if anyone has experimented?

That may be the first thing I'll have to change is the tires.........

[blue dragon]

I thought the same thing, just tonight I was telling my wife how the legacy really needs some aftermarket pads like Hawk HPS, then I came home and saw your thread I think that we have both been spoiled by BMWs. The legacy feels great in a straight line, but toss it into a curve, and there's way too much body roll, and it just doesn't feel like the grip is there.

 

I almost got into trouble on a corner that I know quite well. I speed up, dive to the inside lane, pass some cars on the inside, and then go out to the outter lane to merge into the express lanes on the highway. With the BMW, this is not a problem, and quite a pleasant experience. With the legacy, I was braking before diving into the corner, and my heart skipped a beat thinking, 'holy sh1t, is this thing gonna slow down'?. Not only that, but the car just doesn't feel happy in the corner. You can't make a mid corner correction easily, and it feels way too twitchy.

 

I autocross the BMW, so I am not some noob when it comes to the way a car handles, weight transfer etc. Any suggestions on how to fix whats wrong with the handling? I don't want to go out and spend a grand on coilovers and rear sways since my wife daily drives it.

[RobY]

The legacy WT distribution isnt that bad... MT and C&D quoted 55F / 45 R... The automatic being a bit more front biased.

 

I think most of the qualms come from the dysmal tires, the 16mm rear swaybar, and the soft suspension.

 

I thought my WRX was a mediocre handler until I stiffened her up a bit, got rid of the garbage rubber, and relearned some of my driving.

 

I found out that unlike other cars ive owned the WRX and hopefully the legacy responds VERY VERY well to suspension mods.

 

If you want the advice of sombody with a bit more experience ask Keefe... he is a sponsored driver using his own Legacy GT as a platform. He manages to VERY competitive with it. He would know more about how this car responds to susp mods than any one of us.

[imperator]

One thing I've realized after researching a bit is that the LGT just defies categorization and ultimately, comparison. Comparing the LGT to a BMW 3 series is.... a bit strange, in my opinion, (no offense). I would thing a more proper comparison would be the BMW with a WRX. The LGT is a larger car with a very different pedigree and evolution, and I think this is evident in the most recent iteration. The Legacy never ran with M3s and there's no reason I would expect it to now.

 

That being said, I love my LGT drivetrain, and too was disappointed with the suspension. However, I was similarly disappointed with the handling of the BMW M5. But after further reflection I asked my self: what exactly did I expect from a larger car? If I wanted tossable and quick car that would smoke a BMW 330ci in every situation, I would've kept my WRX. I purchased the LGT because I need a larger but dependable car, but I didn't want to give up the turbo/AWD configuration and thought the higher straight line performance over the WRX was a perk, not an expectation.

 

I think that because the LGT came with sick power, suddenly expectations in all other performance categories get raised, and the shortcomings become more noticeable than the superiorities, unfortunately.

[BoxerGT2.5]

I think it depends on what your commin from really. From an Rx-8 to the GT there is no comparison. RE92's or not. You could put S03's on the GT and it won't touch the 8. But the Rx-8 can't touch the power of the GT. Just tradeoffs....thats all.

[SUBE555]

I do agree with you guys in that it's an entirely different handling machine and that it won't handle like a car with a much more rearward bias, it just won't. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to do a lot of very fun things. The roads I drive on I have ZERO problems keeping up with WRX's and by all means, they are curvy! It might mean for slighty harder braking or earlier, but I do power out of the corners much better through. But ultimately, it's not that bad IMO, then again I haven't driven a BMW, but when I transverse tarmac to gravel and back in the same drive, there is no comparison for flexibility.

http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/AARON/100_2884.jpg

A few sexy cars.

 

I've found this car changes a lot just by how your tire pressures and balance is set, but I still want the car to handle how I want it to, though not from the factory unfortauntely.

 

If I could come up with some sort of stage setup for the Legacy GT, it would probably look something like this for brakes and handling:

Brakes:

Stage 1-Fluid, Stainless Brake Lines, Street/AutoX Pads

Stage 2-Fluid, Stainless Brake Lines, AutoX/Track Pads, Slotted Rotors

Stage 3-Fluid, Stainless Brake Lines, Big Brake Kit (F / R-opt.) w/ Pads

Essentially Stage 1 would be just firming things up how we may wish they would have come from the factory with some good street pads, Stage 2 would be increasing operating temperature ability for using at the track, perhaps lots of open road driving like I do, and Stage 3 would be the ultimate setup most of us would never use.

 

Suspension:

Stage 1-Rear Sway Bar, Sport Springs

Stage 2-F&R Sway Bars, Bilstein Spec-B Struts, Sport Springs

Stage 3-F&R Sway Bars, Coil-Overs

Auxiliary- Strut Tower Bars, End Links, Adjustable Top Hats

It's all an evolutionary thing, getting more aggressive and at the same time more expensive, I feel these solutions when set up right would provide the correct levels of tuning to make the car just as it is mean't to be per the drivers aggressive stance. To each driver they want something different and I might make it as far as Stage 2 in each at some point, but for now, Stage 1 will do. I'm just going to take it one step at a time ans see how things need to be sorted out.

 

Honestly, I know the GT won't handle exactly like those cars, but it can truly hold it's own set up decently, and it doesn't need to be the Stage 3 of brakes and handling to do that. Mod smart and you'll be ther before you know it in time and before running up a big tab with your pocketbook.

[BoxerGT2.5]

The one thing I haven't touched is the brakes....scary when you think about it.

[SUBE555]

I like to make things about as equal handling as I can, so I go faster in more than a straight line.

[fan42025]

Gee you guys have been short changed. Here in Australia we get the much better Potenza RE050A ones. They are so good they are dangerous, meaning it gives the driver a false sense of security that allows them to take corners at almost any speed. Stopping power is amazing - it's almost impossible to get the ABS to come into action. The only downside with these tires is the cost; too much. So when I'll buy new ones I might look for another type.

[lemming]

i think the legacy will respond well to suspension work, too. but it's still its first year and the parts are slow in coming.

 

i'm not overly worried.

 

if you drive well, you can make anything go fast and do it well --it really is a big adjustment and these AWD cars are not as forgiving in terms of how you enter a corner, for example, as a 50/50 RWD car. they'll push quite a bit if you don't hit the apex (relative to where it should be for the car's handling limits). but if you nail it, you can apply power and drift ever so slightly beautifully and rocket onto the straight.

 

on OEM stuff.

 

added tires just means there's no squealing and no squishy feeling when the suspension and tires are max compressed.

 

i'd love to see how different it is when the car get well-matched and well-made sway bars. not overly keen on doing springs without struts, so i'd wait for a nice matched set of those, too.

 

as far as brakes go, i'm completely unthrilled with the OEM setup and will have a wait and see approach as to what works. if it's just pads (i doubt it's that simple) that would be great. but my suspicion is that as the power get tweaked upwards, the car could really use some lightweight 4pots upfront.

[grim]

I'm pickin' up the new gt tomorrow morning, but here is my take on it.

 

Tires are *the* most important thing. It's absolutely worthless modifying any bit of your suspension or brakes unless you are running the best of the best tires. Now, I realize that you'll always have comprimises, especially in the winter (requiring an all season or winter tire), however, running the stock, or other poor performing tires is just counterproductive. The Leg' at least comes with a decent sized wheel, so there is no reason you couldn't at the minimum, upgrade to a top end all season. Otherwise, wheels are cheap, a decent set of Rotas and Ecsta MX's is only a bit over 1000.

 

Next up. No springs, no way, don't even bother. If tires (and wheels) are a stage 1 braking and handling mod, stage 2 handling is going to be a proper alignment from a respected shop that will take *your* numbers, and possibly a rear sway bar (20mm). As far as stage 2 brakes, stainless lines, good fluid, and *GOOD* pads, and even so, this is for feel and control, not to reduce braking distance, the tires already did that.

 

Springs? Ricer mod, sorry, but it's beyond me how you can change a spring without proper matching of the strut. End up with a worse handling car if you ask me.

 

jb

[gtguy]

Grim has hit the nail on the head. The GT is precisely that. It lacks the near 50/50 weight distribution of BMWs, which means that yes, it will handle differently. And with the wee rear sway bar giving up the ghost too early, you can get uncertain handling.

 

Smooth drivers are astoundingly fast in the Legacy. The car is composed as can be, as long as you don't ask it to do what it shouldn't do. A stiffer car will handle better on some roads, but have you bouncing off the headliner on bumpy roads. It's all a matter of what you have, and what you want. But it's also important to understand what you have, then decide if it is in fact what you want.

 

As far as the Legacy's brakes, tires stop the car. GT brakes were tested against a couple of pimped-out WRX options, with all else being equal (wheels, tires), and the GT brakes ruled the roost. They also had much less fade, even using stock fluid. A guy over at NASIOC did a thorough wringing out of the different systems.

 

Tires improve the GT's braking capabilities immensely. Add lines, fluid and Hawk pads to a car with RE92s and it's still going to be unsatisfactory if you're driving it hard. On the other hand, a Kia with R-compounds will stop on a dime all day long.

 

Cheers,

 

Kevin

[RobY]

Common who's gonna post the scapegoat pic? .... throws bag of popcorn in micro...

[Parousia]

I think that it is crazy to try to compare a Legacy GT with anything other than another sport Wagon and try to claim that it is weak on bakes or handling....

 

Just a thought but have you checked out this thread.....

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256

 

The Legacy beat a 450HP Audi RS6 because of its ability to brake and handle so much better than its competition.

 

I personally am very happy with its handling, it does not plow as much as the WRX and I am happy with its brakes.

 

Parousia

[bluechipbmw]

Lol