LGT Spec B vs. BMW 3/5 Series vs. Audi A/S4s

[Jimmytooslow]

Hey guys,

 

I'm moving up to Boston for grad school in the fall, and want to do some research on the various car options that I have. The budget I have is in the range of 20-30k. I know it's a large range, but want to keep my options open.

 

The two absolute requirements I have are: manual trans and navigation (I'm completely new to the city and the surrouding areas). I think AWD is required too for the winters, but would be interested to hear your thoughts if you live in the north.

 

I've narrowed my options down to the following cars (no SUVs):

 

05-07 Audi A4 / S4 Quattro - price difference b/t the two is small (2-3k @ about the same mileage) and I would love the sound of a V8. MPG on the S4 is horrible from what I understand, but I won't be driving much so it's not a big factor...

 

06-07 BMW 328xi / 330xi / 530xi - 335 is too expensive, and even the 328/330s will be in the higher 20k range. Most expensive of the choices.

 

07-08 Subaru LGT Spec B - cheapest option with the lowest mileage. Probably the fastest with the exception of the S4.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the following:

 

1 - Fun factor - Given these are all AWDs, can someone with experience tell me how they differ in this department? I feel that if AWD were not a requirement, the BMW (RWD) will win given their suspension setups (note - I have not driven a Suburu or an S4 before).

 

2 - Refinement - While I would like to have some fun with the car in the non-winter seasons, the car should be a proper "grown up" car (no super harsh rides, etc.).

 

3 - Reliability - Most of the cars here will be covered under warranty (or I will buy one) but I hate going to dealerships to fix even minor things. Are any of the above cars very problematic?

 

4 - Winter performance - I intend to go skiing and traveling in Vermont, NH, etc. during the winter time, are all the cars above sufficient?

 

Am I missing anything? Thanks a bunch for your help.

[katalyst]

1&2: probably the A4, but "fun factor" is highly subjective

3: either bmw or subaru

4: subaru or audi, but AWD = useless without proper tires, especially since the spec B comes with summer rubber; will you be living at a place that will accommodate an extra set of wheels/tires for the winter?

 

also where will you be parking your car in boston? if it's street parking, be prepared to have your car's exterior destroyed by lousy winters, sh.tty drivers and even sh.ttier parking jobs --> if so, investing into something like the bmw might not make sense for you. otherwise a parking space will probably cost you in the ballpark of $300/month.

 

but i'd say you're pretty baller to be considering a S4 and going to grad school if you really wanted to, you could just get a beater for the time you're here, ditch it when you're done school.

[Jimmytooslow]

1&2: probably the A4, but "fun factor" is highly subjective

3: either bmw or subaru

4: subaru or audi, but AWD = useless without proper tires, especially since the spec B comes with summer rubber; will you be living at a place that will accommodate an extra set of wheels/tires for the winter?

 

also where will you be parking your car in boston? if it's street parking, be prepared to have your car's exterior destroyed by lousy winters, sh.tty drivers and even sh.ttier parking jobs --> if so, investing into something like the bmw might not make sense for you. otherwise a parking space will probably cost you in the ballpark of $300/month.

 

but i'd say you're pretty baller to be considering a S4 and going to grad school if you really wanted to, you could just get a beater for the time you're here, ditch it when you're done school.

 

Thanks for the reply. So you think the A4 would actually be more fun than the Bimmers and the Subaru? I understand it's subjective, but maybe you could elaborate a bit? Also, I know that Audi and BMW isn't known for their reliability, but you think BMW > Audi in this dept? On the winter tires, I'm not sure that I'll have space so I'm thinking of just going all year tires once I need to start dealing with snow -- do those work ok or do I need dedicated snow tires?

 

If I get a car it'll probably with garage parking. Not the cheapest option but I do want to preserve the value of the car when I sell it after school. I've worked my butt off over the last couple of years and see the ability to have a nicer car my reward for school.

[rice_rocket]

I think he was saying S4 is more baller and fun. I can't speak for it since I only have an A4 and A6. Also my mom has a 330xi and I can say the following:

 

The Subaru is best long term in regards to reliability and being in Boston. The Audis and BMW's are certainly more luxury feel inside, and ride quality ie squishier, solid sounding doors, quiet interior etc.

 

Maintenance is all out the door .. if you get lucky, you'll be fine... if not and you live inside boston, you're going to get screwed by very expensive mechanics.

 

As mentioned, prepare to get your car beaten down, side mirrors knocked off, bumper paint being demolished and/or cracked. Be prepared for theft as well.

 

In my opinion, get yourself a portable GPS unit... better chance for updated maps. And DO NOT rely on the GPS for downtown boston trips.. the big dig updates are not on any gps units!! Otherwise.. they are pretty good.

 

Oh.. and MT in the city gets old when you get stuck in traffic.. not sure where you are from. I just recently sold my Evo and bought my first automatic car (for myself) for the first time in my life.

 

Invest in some solid winter/summer tires if you can afford the space.. if not, all seasons will do for the most part if you have any skills at driving

[Jimmytooslow]

Hm... So the GPS is useless around downtown Boston? That really sucks.

 

How do winter tires hold up during the rest of the year? Can I just keep them on? Stupid question I know...

[rice_rocket]

Well here's the deal with downtown Boston.. as long as you're sticking with the main roads you're fine. The problem is that a lot of the time it's detoured or changed because of the big dig. Example being: ALL the highway exits are not the same since the whole project is about moving/changing the highways for underground tunnels. If you talk about the smaller roads.. yes they are still the same.

 

That.. and GPS signals tend to get spotty with the large buildings of downtown... I really wouldn't want to be driving it much anyways, whenever I pass through I'm trying to get out as fast as possible. And that is me working downtown and driving in daily. Thank god it's not government center where I work.. but I am close enough.

 

As for solid winter tires... I actually just keep them on my wife's A4 and the dunlop M3's have actually made it about 20K miles, or 2 years of her driving. That being said, I am most likely going to try to get another set for her since she hates the winter and even cold/rainy driving. Seeing as there is no need for straightline summer performance, it doesn't matter to me.

 

If you are doing that little driving... I myself would opt for a much much cheaper/utilitarian car than the Audi's or even BMW's unless it's a much older model that you can sacrifice it's cosmetics

[katalyst]

^ really, that's the first i've heard of a winter tire being able to truck through like that. i would say it's not very ideal since the winter rubber is optimized for temps <50F

 

also downtown boston, you probably don't want to drive around there anyway becuase 1) there's no parking 2) the subway gets you there (i'm assuming you mean government center/financial district)

[zildjiank]

You'll have to drive the S4 to see if it is comparable to the Suby.

 

I will say that there is NOTHING like driving a turbo, and just for that reason, I say Suby over teh S4. (But I haven't driven the new ones w/ the V8 either:spin:)

[Whatisit]

 

As mentioned, prepare to get your car beaten down, side mirrors knocked off, bumper paint being demolished and/or cracked. Be prepared for theft as well.

 

this alone would make me consider somthing else all together

 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/11/suzuki-sx4-11.jpg

AWD, manual, cheap, and fun. its roomy and surprisingly very nice inside. Im pritty sure you can get a Nav with it too. beat on it, and enjoy.

[MDork]

this alone would make me consider somthing else all together

 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/11/suzuki-sx4-11.jpg

AWD, manual, cheap, and fun. its roomy and surprisingly very nice inside. Im pritty sure you can get a Nav with it too. beat on it, and enjoy.

 

I've always liked the little SX4. Have you ever driven one? Seems like a really cool beater. I think the beater route is a good one for someone going to grad school - more flexibility when you graduate and of course much cheaper to own.

[RJS5689]

I'd say look very closely at the S4. I am having severe buyers remorse with my Spec.B knowing I could have gotten into a 2007 S4. My opinion may be biased as I worked for a VW/Audi performance shop and am a VAG fan (Volkswagen Auto Group for you pervs out there.) My ex drives an S4 and I have a Spec.B. We took each other’s cars out and he happened to really like the Legacy. His biggest complaint was how slow it is, which I happen to agree with. The Spec.B is nothing special when stock in terms of performance. He did make a good point though, our Legacy will hold up better in 5 years than that Audi will, something that I was willing to deal with, especially because I know the ins and outs of VAG vehicles. Creature comforts and amenities in the Audi will blow the Subaru out the door. Europeans cars are much more of a dream to drive; they feel like they have a soul and a personality. They feel like more than the piece of sheet metal our Legacy feels like. If I had to do it all again, I’d be driving a V8 S4.

[katalyst]

to me the 330xi feels like it doens't have too much "soul", it feels very sterile but it is a rather excellent piece of german engineering. imo between the a4/legacy it would be the best of the group on paper.

 

but really there isn't any way to tell unless you test drive all 3 and decide what you like best.

 

(haha this soul debate is going to open a huge can of worms, highly subjective)

[rtbrjason]

On that list, I would go with the S4 assuming you're okay with maintenance and repair costs being higher than normal. My next choice would be the Spec B and then the 5 series; Though if it were a 540, I think that would be my 2nd choice.

[longislander1]

I would go with something cheap, reliable and dispensable. If you want some fun, find a used Civic Si or WRX. I parked my car on the street in NYC for a couple years and it was beaten up. Save your money for something nice after grad school.

[RJS5689]

On that list, I would go with the S4 assuming you're okay with maintenance and repair costs being higher than normal. My next choice would be the Spec B and then the 5 series; Though if it were a 540, I think that would be my 2nd choice.

And that was my biggest mistake! I regret not scooping up that S4 when I could have! My mother had a 540 back in the day, excellent car, fun to drive, quick, handled well. Only downside is it's RWD and I think the OP wants AWD.

[Blue GT]

If your not going to mod at all, dont even consider the Suby. I absolutely love mine but just a small part of me wishes it was a bmw. The fit and feel is deffinitly better in the beamer no question. Plus they are much more "baller" status, that being said a few mods and a smaller price tag make me love my GT.

 

Hope my .02 helps?

[Jimmytooslow]

this alone would make me consider somthing else all together

 

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2007/11/suzuki-sx4-11.jpg

AWD, manual, cheap, and fun. its roomy and surprisingly very nice inside. Im pritty sure you can get a Nav with it too. beat on it, and enjoy.

 

Hm... I think I'd rather take the tube than to drive that thing. A man's gotta have his pride! And honestly, I'm not sure the depreciation savings is that much over two years vs. a LGT (of course, b/c I would want to drive a lot more if I had a better car the gas bill would also be different).

[Jimmytooslow]

I'd say look very closely at the S4. I am having severe buyers remorse with my Spec.B knowing I could have gotten into a 2007 S4. My opinion may be biased as I worked for a VW/Audi performance shop and am a VAG fan (Volkswagen Auto Group for you pervs out there.) My ex drives an S4 and I have a Spec.B. We took each other’s cars out and he happened to really like the Legacy. His biggest complaint was how slow it is, which I happen to agree with. The Spec.B is nothing special when stock in terms of performance. He did make a good point though, our Legacy will hold up better in 5 years than that Audi will, something that I was willing to deal with, especially because I know the ins and outs of VAG vehicles. Creature comforts and amenities in the Audi will blow the Subaru out the door. Europeans cars are much more of a dream to drive; they feel like they have a soul and a personality. They feel like more than the piece of sheet metal our Legacy feels like. If I had to do it all again, I’d be driving a V8 S4.

 

Do elaborate on the B7 reliability please! Big, small, and everything in between.

[Jimmytooslow]

If your not going to mod at all, dont even consider the Suby. I absolutely love mine but just a small part of me wishes it was a bmw. The fit and feel is deffinitly better in the beamer no question. Plus they are much more "baller" status, that being said a few mods and a smaller price tag make me love my GT.

 

Hope my .02 helps?

 

If I get the LGT I know the modding bug would get me and I'd want to spend a lot of time and $$ into a car that I know I'll keep for two years.. I'm telling myself that it'll be just a chip + exhaust now, but when I get a hold of it it'll be those + intake + suspension + STS + HIDs + blah blah blah.

[RJS5689]

Do elaborate on the B7 reliability please! Big, small, and everything in between.

B7s have proven far more reliable than previous generations. Here are some test results actually:

(The lower the number the better)

2005.5-2006: 56, about average

2007: 40, better than average

2008: 34, better than average

The 2008 Legacy gets a 56, which is AVERAGE!

 

The problems I find are people who think they know everything, but are really going off of old information. The V8 in the S4 is an excellent engine, and I really haven't seen many issues with them at all. In fact, I can’t recall any that I have seen. As I said, my EX has an S4, he and I were talking about it and he has mentioned some electronic glitches here and there. I forgot exactly what they were, but I will be sure to ask him to elaborate later on. VAG has really come A LONG way with their vehicles recently, by that I mean 2006+ models (VW MKV platforms and Audi B7 platforms.) I really do regret not buying the S4 every day that passes. It's far quicker, handles much better, looks a ton better, is more comfortable and personally, I think is a much better vehicle. As I said earlier, my biggest mistake was switching to the “JDM,” their vehicles just feel like, I don’t know, plain pieces of metal, rather than carefully engineered pieces of machinery. I've been rambling on and trying to search my brain for any major issues I have seen with the B7 and I can't think of any. I know quite a few S4 owners and way too many A4 owners. All of them are very content with their vehicles. I will say this, be ready for a more expensive vehicle. Parts, labor, it's all going to cost more. If this isn’t an issue for you, which it wasn’t for me, then I would seriously go drive an S4. Don't make my mistake and regret it every day.

 

Check out some VAG forums:

www.vwvortex.com (was the largest online forum EVER not too long ago actually)

www.audiworld.com

[Jimmytooslow]

B7s have proven far more reliable than previous generations. Here are some test results actually:

 

2005.5-2006: 56, about average

 

2007: 40, better than average

 

2008: 34, better than average

 

The problems I find are people who think they know everything, but are really going off of old information. The V8 in the S4 is an excellent engine, and I really haven't seen many issues with them at all. In fact, I can’t recall any that I have seen. As I said, my EX has an S4, he and I were talking about it and he has mentioned some electronic glitches here and there. I forgot exactly what they were, but I will be sure to ask him to elaborate later on. VAG has really come A LONG way with their vehicles recently, by that I mean 2006+ models (VW MKV platforms and Audi B7 platforms.) I really do regret not buying the S4 every day that passes. It's far quicker, handles much better, looks a ton better, is more comfortable and personally, I think is a much better vehicle. As I said earlier, my biggest mistake was switching to the “JDM,” their vehicles just feel like, I don’t know, plain pieces of metal, rather than carefully engineered pieces of machinery. I've been rambling on and trying to search my brain for any major issues I have seen with the B7 and I can't think of any. I know quite a few S4 owners and way too many A4 owners. All of them are very content with their vehicles. I will say this, be ready for a more expensive vehicle. Parts, labor, it's all going to cost more. If this isn’t an issue for you, which it wasn’t for me, then I would seriously go drive an S4. Don't make my mistake and regret it every day.

 

Thanks a bunch. Why not trade in the LGT for an S4? Seems that the values are comparable (+3k maybe depending on the condition).

 

Also, any experience with the Audi extended manufacture warranty? If I get a S4 it'll likely be through the CPO program or with warranty left.

[Guest heightsgtltd]

I agree that build quality of the later gen A4 is much better, and haven't seen much of any issues with the V8 in the S4.

 

A member on here, GTSubie switched not that long ago to an 05 or so S4 and he really likes it

 

I think the larger issue is still service. When stuff does go wrong, and it will eventually, you will pay more for it than with Subaru

[Billy Dagwood]

only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this has been said ad nauseam, but upon reading the original post my first thought was this:

 

nav won't help much around here. true, you'll be fine on the main roads, but I sure wouldn't trust my garmin with boston sidestreets. I pretty much only trust a compass and driving towards skyscrapers on the sidestreets.

[RJS5689]

Thanks a bunch. Why not trade in the LGT for an S4? Seems that the values are comparable (+3k maybe depending on the condition).

 

Also, any experience with the Audi extended manufacture warranty? If I get a S4 it'll likely be through the CPO program or with warranty left.

Because I'm an idiot. I'm currently in college and was selling my GTI because I needed AWD where I am. I had the notion that used is bad, and I would never ever buy a used car, especially after seeing my sisters 3 series coupe turn out to be a lemon, even though it was a CPO vehicle. Too many headaches associated with a used vehicle I figured. I didn’t want that hassle, I didn’t want he worry, I wanted to be the one breaking the car in. So the only vehicle that met my criteria was a spec.B. I walked into the dealer by my house who had one and decided to look. It was nice, I had already ruled out the Audi, so I had taken a liking to the Subaru. I was paying $33,000 before TTL. I put 20,000 down and am financing the rest at 2.9% for 5 years. The hit I would take on selling it and getting the S4 would be way too big. Especially with the economy and my current situation. I can comfortable make my payments on the Legacy, but trading for an S4 would be a little crazy. I really thought I was making the right decision at the time, but looking back on it, I wouldn’t have minded if the S4 was slightly used. Even if I wanted to, I would take a huge hit. I doubt my car is worth that much. It's 11 months old and has 25,000 miles on it already.

[Rob1218]

^

You should sell your legacy, there is something wrong with that car if it feels slow compared to VW or a Audi.