wrxvt Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Most EDLs stop working above about 25 mph anyhow. (EDL refers to a fake diff controlled by the brakes, electroniclly controlled diffs are different) Infiniti/Nissan's ATTESA-ETS is used in the G35 and M35/45x. The ETS uses an electronically controlled wet clutch-pack diff, which is certainly a "real" LSD. This is teh same system found in the R32 GTR. It does not ahve right/left control or yaw control unlike later GTRs (and reacts slower than them). Considering I can't even break traction even in the wet, from 1mph much less at 25+mph, I'm not too worried edit: are you sure the ATTESA-ETS has a electronic clutch-pack diff in the rear and not just in the center (like the BMW has)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Considering I can't even break traction even in the wet, from 1mph much less at 25+mph, I'm not too worried BMW's Xdrive isn't solely an ELSD. It has an electronically controlled wet-clutch system that doesn't shut off above that speed. ELSD is not the same electronically controlled limited slip diff. One is a few brakes, a computer and an open diff. One is a type of LSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrxvt Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 BMW's Xdrive isn't solely an ELSD. It has an electronically controlled wet-clutch system that doesn't shut off above that speed. ELSD is not the same electronically controlled limited slip diff. One is a few brakes, a computer and an open diff. One is a type of LSD. well, I can't find anything that says the bmw ELSD shuts off at 25mph... and I can't find anything that says a g37x has an LSD in the rear (or front). If you can find either I would be very grateful. the only thing comparing the infiniti's awd system to xDrive is this review: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/comparo-infiniti-g37x-vs-bmw-328xi-again/ The G37’s dynamic vehicle control, traction control, ABS and all-wheel drive system do their level best to keep you at your level best, away from solid objects. I plowed this thing through light and heavy virgin snow. The experience was almost disappointing. The rear-wheel drive bias fools you into thinking you can break the rear end loose. You can’t. At least not if you’ve got a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a desire to support same. The BMW’s equipped with almost the same system. I’m sure lawyers someplace will disagree. But the result is identical: more confidence than anyone other than Gunnar Thermaenius should have on a snowy road (to pick a neutral party). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanlsb Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 s2000 + LGT for the price of his bmw. Nobody is buying BMWs in this economy. "BMW sold TEN 7-series cars on the entire North American continent in February, versus 1,502 last February - down more than 99%! YTD, the 7-series sold 33 in '09 vs. 2,212 last year. X3, X5 and Z4 sales are way down too. Certified Preowned sales are up 23.9% YoY." Sales BMW of North America, LLC, February 2009 Feb. 09 Feb. 08 % YTD Feb. 09 YTD Feb. 08 % 1 Series 853 0 N/A 1,569 0 N/A 3 Series 6,414 8,943 -28.3% 11,427 15,787 -27.6% Z4 Roadster and Coupe 21 524 -96.0% 66 887 -92.6% 5 Series 3,191 4,442 -28.2% 5,787 7,213 -19.8% 6 Series 287 458 -37.3% 591 823 -28.2% 7 Series 10 1,502 -99.3% 33 2,212 -98.5% BMW passenger cars 10,776 15,869 -32.1% 19,473 26,922 -27.7% ------------------ ------ ------ ----- ------ ------ ----- X3 267 1,367 -80.5% 661 2,458 -73.1% X5 1,686 3,539 -52.4% 4,561 5,870 -22.3% X6 250 0 N/A 516 0 N/A BMW light trucks (SAVs) 2,203 4,906 -55.1% 5,738 8,328 -31.1% ---------------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- BMW brand 12,979 20,775 -37.5% 25,211 35,250 -28.5% --------- ------ ------ ----- ------ ------ ----- Cooper /S Hardtop 2,019 2,258 -10.6% 3,501 4,415 -20.7% Cooper /S Convertible 46 454 -89.9% 92 757 -87.8% Cooper /S Clubman 761 703 8.3% 1,315 703 87.1% --- ---- MINI brand 2,826 3,415 -17.2% 4,908 5,875 -16.5% ---------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- TOTAL BMW of North America, LLC 15,805 24,190 -34.7% 30,119 41,125 -26.8% ------------------ ------ ------ ----- ------ ------ ----- Not shocking that sales are down, but wow. -99% MTD?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrxvt Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Nobody is buying BMWs in this economy. Not shocking that sales are down, but wow. -99% MTD?! well, the 09 Z4 and 7 series are the last of the model cycle. '10 model year is a complete redesign. I wouldn't buy a 2009 7 series either, they probably didn't make that many. My local BMW dealership (which is one of the biggest) doesn't have ANY 2008 or 2009 7 series or Z4s in stock, so even if I wanted to buy one of those, I couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 well, I can't find anything that says the bmw ELSD shuts off at 25mph... and I can't find anything that says a g37x has an LSD in the rear (or front). If you can find either I would be very grateful. the only thing comparing the infiniti's awd system to xDrive is this review: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/comparo-infiniti-g37x-vs-bmw-328xi-again/ That's because it is in the center There's a clutch pack in the back and a VLSD in the middle. I hope the ELSD shuts off at some speed, otherwise, your brake pads will be hurting I haven't driven the x-drive vehicles, but I have driven Infiniti's quite extensively (which is somewhat similar) As far as I can tell, Subaru's AWD is better than infiniti's in snow and ice. Infiniti's is somewhat better in the dry. I don't have enough higher speed rain experence to say in that regard. They'll all get you where you want to go, but at near the limits they have differences. The rear VSLD on the LGT doesn't really work that quick anyhow. (One issue with that article is that it assumes being able to break the rear is a bad thing. Being able to break it at some predictable point is a damn good thing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 As stated before e-diffs are VERY diffrent from electronic EDL systems. An EDL when it activates BRAKES the wheel thats spinning REMOVING power and SLOWING down the car and transfers power to the other side. While the opposite side receives the power from the braked wheel. Essentially you still only have one wheel drive. The computer just chooses which wheel it wants to drive If we think about that real hard... keep thinking... ready... its real stupid. If i want to move forward why the hell would I brake one wheel only to spin up the other? Its very pointless in alot of conditions because the computer chooses which wheel it wants to spin up In an E-diff clutch packs within the differential attempt to sync both wheels and transfers power to both sides of the axle and does not slow any wheel down. This is what the most advanced AWD systems use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossm Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I cant imagine any BMW owner taking a 335xi off road... so... My dad has owned a 2006 LGT (which I bought from him) and now has a 2009 BMW 335xi 6-speed. Now, let me preface this by saying that he has an ~7 mile gravel driveway, and lives in Louisiana where the roads are really shitty. In his opinion, the LGT is far superior to the BMW in gravel. In fact, you can't even drive the BMW down that road over 20 mph without disabling all of its computer systems because it will just put all of its power to one wheel and brake all of the others, effectively eliminating the point of the AWD. And even after you turn them off, the LGT is still better. Also, on bad roads (potholes, really weird camber) the LGT handles better than the BMW as well. We don't know why. At all other times, the BMW handles much better than the LGT and accelerates much better than it did when stock. (Although since we had the then stg 2 LGT and the new BMW at the same time to compare against each other, the LGT was a bit faster than the BMW at stg 2). He misses the LGT but clearly he is in the 1% of drivers... well way less than 1%, that the LGT would be superior to the BMW. On another note, neither of us can see why you would give a better grade to the BMW's interior. The BMW's interior isn't nearly as nice as the LGT. The radio controls take way more time to get it to do what you want it to do, the cupholders are the worst design ever and are completely useless, and the seats in the LGT are more comfortable to sit in. As a driver's car, on a normal road, the BMW wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE RZA Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 7 mile driveway? christ where in lousiana is this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrxvt Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 My dad has owned a 2006 LGT (which I bought from him) and now has a 2009 BMW 335xi 6-speed. Now, let me preface this by saying that he has an ~7 mile gravel driveway, and lives in Louisiana where the roads are really shitty. In his opinion, the LGT is far superior to the BMW in gravel. In fact, you can't even drive the BMW down that road over 20 mph without disabling all of its computer systems because it will just put all of its power to one wheel and brake all of the others, effectively eliminating the point of the AWD. And even after you turn them off, the LGT is still better. Also, on bad roads (potholes, really weird camber) the LGT handles better than the BMW as well. We don't know why. At all other times, the BMW handles much better than the LGT and accelerates much better than it did when stock. (Although since we had the then stg 2 LGT and the new BMW at the same time to compare against each other, the LGT was a bit faster than the BMW at stg 2). He misses the LGT but clearly he is in the 1% of drivers... well way less than 1%, that the LGT would be superior to the BMW. On another note, neither of us can see why you would give a better grade to the BMW's interior. The BMW's interior isn't nearly as nice as the LGT. The radio controls take way more time to get it to do what you want it to do, the cupholders are the worst design ever and are completely useless, and the seats in the LGT are more comfortable to sit in. As a driver's car, on a normal road, the BMW wins. interesting perspective. I can see where you are coming from on all points. The bmw is a lot more fun and gets sideways much easier in the snow (haven't tried gravel yet) with DTC engaged (and therefore normal dsc is off). With everything off, you can have a lot of fun, and I can agree that perhaps the legacy is a bit more fun under that situation. as far as the interior... I do agree the LGT interior looks very nice. It's just that I feel like I can slightly adjust the whole center console just by pushing on it above where the ashtray is... the interior door handles and other spots you touch often feel a little bit more plasticy any loose. The bmw on the other hand... it feels like you can do a gymnastics routine on all the interior bits and not worry about anything. they have practically no "give" if that makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdvictor Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Nice review, wish I could have afforded one. I have a feeling reliability may become an issue down the road though . . . As having had BMWs in my family before, i don't think you have to go too far down the road. Hrmmm...would love the drivetrain. All those bosch and siemens electronics...ehh..not so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Good review. Edge to the BMW seems right on given the BMW costs 50% more. I'm sure you know, but didn't mention, that the non-lag your feeling is due to two turbos and lager displacement How about the interior space front/rear...more or less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKGT5 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 The 335i on Passtime ran 12.61@110 with just software as they said. The biggest plus about the 335 is the large displacement and the force induction like the old Supra's/Grand Nationals/Trans Am(89) and 300zx's. The price factor makes it less attractive in my opinion. http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/799/799862/799862_program_hero3.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrxvt Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 Good review. Edge to the BMW seems right on given the BMW costs 50% more. I'm sure you know, but didn't mention, that the non-lag your feeling is due to two turbos and lager displacement How about the interior space front/rear...more or less? You can feel the difference in the greater wheelbase that the 335i has.... simply by sitting in the front passenger seat. Most decently tall adults have their feet pressed up against the firewall in the LGT's front seat- especially if they have to have enough room for the passenger in the back. The BMW has more depth, your feet can't touch the firewall unless you are pretty tall- if they seat is all the way back, all but the tallest people won't be able to touch the firewall. This obviously impacts rear seat legroom- I'd say that the total leg/foot room between front and rear is about 4" greater in the BMW than in the LGT. KNEE room however is about the same- the BMW's dash does seem to intrude on kneeroom- so clearly this is a wheelbase only benefit. The rest of the car is about the same size. Interior room in general seems about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 ^ thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reality Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Great information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fzanetti Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 agreed on the AWD thing, between subaru AWD, BMW X-drive, Audi Quattro, Lexus 4WD and Honda AWD...Subaru takes the cake but to each their own, perhaps its the fact that he's driving a BMW now gives him this Bias. I may have to disagree with you on that one.... I used to own an 01 S4 and also a heavier 00 A6, Audi QUATTRO is still the best AWD system out there, pls look for my previous posts where i compared them both, explained the main differences, etc etc etc.... This for one: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15460&highlight=flavio+Quattro+AWD+Symmetrical Both companies came a long way but till today, not me the whole industry sees it as the role model for AWD systems out there... Now, would I ever own an Audi again? Probably not, however we need to be unbiased, not because we have Subies we will think they are the creme de la creme out there, cause they are not.... Fairness to the game of comparisons... Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I may have to disagree with you on that one.... I used to own an 01 S4 and also a heavier 00 A6, Audi QUATTRO is still the best AWD system out there, pls look for my previous posts where i compared them both, explained the main differences, etc etc etc.... This for one: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15460&highlight=flavio+Quattro+AWD+Symmetrical Both companies came a long way but till today, not me the whole industry sees it as the role model for AWD systems out there... Now, would I ever own an Audi again? Probably not, however we need to be unbiased, not because we have Subies we will think they are the creme de la creme out there, cause they are not.... Fairness to the game of comparisons... Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA I disagree with Subaru v. Audi. They're mostly the same and I think the rear diff sort of overcomes the slower reaction of the VLSD comapred to the torsen. At the local Audi club ice event/race (timed, but not insured as a race), the only time an Audi took home the fastest non-studded time was when not one subaru showed up. It is hard to quanify, but comapring standard manual subaru AWD (center VLSD and rear VLSD) versus standard quattro (center torsen and open diffs on each end), they basically work the same. The Audi will react faster front to back, but the subaru has some ability to control rear wheel speeds. the Audi has a better diff, but the Subaru has more. Now 3 torsen-type LSDs, that would be sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Or just get an STi Dual torsens and a center Electronic Planetary Variable Biasing Diff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE RZA Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 the only Bias I have for Subaru AWD over the other brands is that i've driven cars from all the brands i listed. When I was working for a luxury car dealer for a year and a half I was able to drive those cars in almost every imaginable weather condition you could think of since I do live in the North East just like you fzanetti. (this is based off driving a Audi A4 quattro, a6 quattro; BMW 335xi's, 328xi's, X3's, X4's; various Lexus RX series; and Acura MDX) when comparing to my old 98 Leggy and my 09 Leggy subaru's AWD has performed much better in the snow, rain, wind and ice than i felt in any of those cars, If i was to rank the companies handling in inclimate conditions it would be 1. Subaru 2. Audi 3. BMW 4. Lexus 5. Acura/Honda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Not enough personal experience myself but... If we want to look at the sport of competitive ice racing. Subarus usually dominate the top of the studded and non-studded AWD classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ama0787 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Oh yea, if it was a SpecB then the review would have come out entirely different Actually, I think it was a really fair review devoid of fanboiism on either side. Let's face it, if most people could comfortable spend 46K on a car they would not be buying an LGT even though it is a really good car. For me, I am going to wait a couple years and then think about picking up a pre-owned M3 sedan I could have bought either and I went for the suby but with the inline 6 turbo motors out now it would be a much harder choice for me. I am very partial to the inline 6 turbo setup particularly 3liter oness The 335i on Passtime ran 12.61@110 with just software as they said. The biggest plus about the 335 is the large displacement and the force induction like the old Supra's/Grand Nationals/Trans Am(89) and 300zx's. The price factor makes it less attractive in my opinion. These are all different version of either motor and or turbo delivery some re single turbno v6 some sequential turbo straght 6, twin turbo v6 etc al can really make for diffent power delivery. I have a supra that started as 2 sequential turbos stock and now has a small single and the power delivers is actually smoother and less likely to break the tires awy if driven properly then when it was stock twins(stage2) tht does assume great driving conditions if it get cold the single blows the tires out like no other but as long as i can keep the initial tire blow out away the single turbo delivers he power smoother and a lot more of it. I figure I may have been lucky to get just under 400whp at stage 2 probably and now i make well over 500whp with the single and because of the delivery it is much more linear.. I think the biggest plus to the 335 is the inline 6 turbo set up I figure I would do exhaust remap and intake temporarily but would definately want it to go single shortly there after. Check out horsepowerfreaks.com to see some crazy beamers they started with supras but then went to the beamer market and make huge power out of even the n/a inline 6's but now with the factory turbos they dont have to build the motor to get gret results. I beleieve I would choose the 335 over a mx I her a m1 is in hte works though as long as it sticks with the 6 turboshould be great probably would have that rear lsd everyone wants. http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/799/799862/799862_program_hero3.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luchin Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Which part? The cracking ringlands? Dangerous stock tune for the #2 cylinder? Insufficient oil feed to the VF40? Poor stock clutch? Yeah, you are right, the LGT has no flaws. I'm new to the world of Subaru. Please explain or point me to where I can find the problems you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugo L. Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 BTW, BMW NA got sued big time for issues with its N54 engine (the one in the 135, 335, 535, Z4, X5, X6, etc...). In a word, they had issues with a problematic wastegate, among other things, along with turbo, fuel pump and a few other tidbits. Instead of fixing it by changing a ton of parts, they decided to re-tune the ECU, sometimes, as I understand it, without telling the customer. More lag, crappy performance, etc... Serious stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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