1998 Legacy GT runs cold?

[levis76]

Hello, I am a noob to Subarus and boxer engines. I just bought a 1998 Legacy GT w/ 175K on Saturday. Upon driving home I noticed the temp gauge had dropped from the standard left of center winter norm back down to C. I did still have heat from the blower, though not as hot as it should have been. Once I left the freeway, the temp started to climb back to normal again, but would drop if I didn't have to stop for awhile. I drove the car earlier today on the freezeway for about 40 min and the same thing happened, the temp gauge read cold until I got off the freeway and had to stop for lights. I stopped at a store and sat in the parking lot for bit to warm up, and the blower stopped blowing hot air, just cold. When I started driving again, the hot air came back. I live in Michigan and it was bitter cold this weekend, but it shouldn't be that cold that the engine temp is dropping. A buddy of mine who 'knows everything' said it was perfectly normal for boxer engines to do this. I don't think that is right, but I could be wrong. I can't figure out what would cause this. I thought maybe the fans were staying on, but I did a cold start a few hours ago, and the fans weren't running. Is the thermostat sticking open maybe, or possibly doesn't have a thermostat installed? I was afraid a head gasket might be the culprit, but the exhaust is clean and so is the coolant and it isn't overheating its overcooling!??

 

Also, what's with the brake pedal, the brakes don't start grabbing until I have the pedal halfway to the floor, but the gas pedal is on a hair trigger. I like the gas pedal, but the brake pedal needs to be a bit firmer for my taste. The old pads are about 2 yrs old, so I have new pads, fluid, and was thinking of ordering a master cylinder as well. I did do a search and found that this seems to be a problem with the Legacy line and I know there was a recall for the cylinders seals failing in cold weather, and the previous owner wasn't aware and doesn't know if this recall was done or not. Is replacing the cylinder going to improve the pedal feel at all? Any way to find out if the recall work was done on this car?

 

I also noticed that the rpms are a bit higher than I am used to. The car has the 2.5 w/ AT. At 70mph I am right at 3000rpm when the OD kicks in. My wifes Avenger and my old Fusion hold steady at about 2300 to 2400, but these are both inline 4s. Are the higher rpms due to the fact that it is a boxer engine?

 

With that said, I love this car. It has some small performance/cosmetic upgrades done, things like a K&N cone filter in place of the stock choke box, Yokohama tires, Optima battery, SS brake lines, new calipers, total suspension rebuild front and back w/ composite bushings, a stiffer front sway bar with some really beefy endlinks, and carbon fiber trim inside. It runs great with the few exceptions listed above.

[ehsnils]

It seems to me that your thermostat is stuck in the open position. Replacing it should rectify your heating problems. At least it doesn't run too hot!

 

For the brakes - check that the calipers float as they should on their supporting pins, because if they don't you will soon need new discs. It's a relatively simple job aside from possible knuckle-busting and dirt. Other causes may be air or a bad hose/line. Since you replaced the fluid it's possible that you have a small air bubble somewhere that has to be bled out.

[levis76]

I haven't replaced the fluid yet, but I will be this weekend, along with the pads and possibly the master cylinder. I will definitely check the caliper operation too.

[jonklein611]

Change of pads and fluid flush will help the brakes. Make sure you don't have a frozen caliper (common on the older legs), and check the brake lines too.

 

As far as heat issue, def a thermostat. Easy fix.

 

Welcome to the forum!

[levis76]

Well I replaced pads, machined the rotors, flushed the fluid and bled the lines. I found a large amount of air in the RR line. Pedal still travels a bit, but the brakes actually grab now instead of fading to the floor. Much better.

 

I took out the thermostat, and it was this huge monstrosity. It weighed twice what the replacement did. At first I thought maybe the guy had given me the wrong part, but a phone call confirmed, it fits perfectly and it opens at 170*F. So I put it in, and filled the system. Ran it, it warmed up, heater was hot. Watched the gauge climb, dip, climb and stabilize. GTG. Proceed with clean up and eat some lunch. Fire the car up, it warms up nicely. Start driving down the road, and within 10 miles, I lose my heat and my temp is almost pegged at Hot. I pulled over, checked things out and found the lower hose was still cold, the thermostat wasn't opening. I limp the car the rest of the way home and let it cool. I pull the thermostat out and check it on the stove. It opens. I opened it and closed it at least a half dozen times. I put it back in, fill the system, and same thing. My temp gauge just kept climbing and the lower hose was cold while the upper hose was hot to the touch and I still have no heat.

 

Any ideas?

[Osei]

Have you checked the flow of the radiator?

 

if the upper is hot and the lower cold, generally is one of three things.

 

Clogged or severely restricted radiator.

 

Faulty water pump

 

and erratic or defective temperature sensing unit.

 

O.

[levis76]

Well, I have fallen victim to the dreaded BHG. I did a few of my own FREE tests to confirm. First, I pulled the rad cap and the over flow cap and took a whiff. I could have gotten a nice buzz from the fumes, very gassy. Next, I let the car warm up to what should be normal temp, about 1/2 needle travel, and had the wife stab the throttle a few times while I held a piece of clean white paper a few inches from the tail pipe. It was pretty effective. Once I brought it inside in some soft white light, I could tell the droplets were coolant as they had a slightly greenish tint. Not good. Now I get to shop for gaskets. Yay. Spending more money on a car I just bought a week ago and was told it was a good driver. Can't get in touch with seller , no answer, just voicemail. Going to call him with my wife's cell tomorrow. I figure he should at least pay for the gaskets, fluids, and spark plugs I now have to replace.

 

Any opinions on what kind of head gaskets I should get? I have no idea what brands are good for these cars. I have built several Chevy engines and used Felpro gaskets without problems, but I don't know if they hold up in the import world. Also, what other gaskets do I need besides the heads, intake, exhaust, and valve covers?

 

My Haynes manual describes doing this while the engine is still in the car, but I am going to pull the engine out anyways so I can get a good look at the rest of it. I have a very slow oil seep at the rear main seal, so I will be replacing that as well. Are there any other common internal engine problems I should be on the look out for while I have her out? Any other seals that should get replaced? AFAIK, this will be the first time this engine has been pulled and it has 175K on it, but I am hopeful that the rest of the internals are in good shape.

[levis76]

Done. The head gaskets were shot. Both gaskets had minor leaks and a few valves had bad seals. Rear main seal was not the source of oil seepage, it was the plastic cover next to it. Cleaned the cover and mating surfaces and sealed it up with some grey permatex. Replaced all the other gaskets I had to break to pull heads, intake and exhaust, valve cover and spark plug holes, and replaced the radiator and trans cooling hoses. Some time consuming delays were inevitable. Things like separating the motor and trans, cracking the crank pulley bolt, and of course having a few key fasteners snap off instead of break loose. I had to make a tool to hold the crank pulley because I don't have a chain wrench. That ate up an hour and a half while I welded up a custom four prong spanner with a hole in the center for the 22mm socket and a 3' handle. That tool plus the 1/2" drive with 2' cheater bar popped it loose in no time. Then I had a cam cap bolt snap off during removal. Luckily the bolt snapped just under the head so there was a good 1/2" of bolt still sticking out of the head, so shot the hell out of it with penetrating fluid and tapped on it now and again with a ball peen to help fluid walk down the threads while I did the other side. After a good two hours, I was able to extract it without further incident. Hope I never have to do this job again, but I'm glad its done. The car runs like a top. Smoother idle and it revs much quicker and smoother. I'm not noticing any significant power increase, but the throttle is more responsive and the car doesn't overheat, YAY!! Now it's off to Aamoco to have the trans diagnosed and probably overhauled, BOO!!

[jonklein611]

How long did the HG change take? I'm looking at doing it this summer.

[levis76]

It's a full weekend job. I figured it would take a full Saturday, but it carried over well into Sunday. Make arrangements for transportation just in case you don't have it done or, god forbid, you find a major problem. My cheeks were clenched hard when I popped each head off. I was afraid I was going to see a crack in a head or worse yet, a cylinder. They looked great though. The cylinders hardly show any wear at all. They still have the factory hone pattern on the walls. Lovin' that. Here is a list of things I learned that may help you save some time and maybe some money.

 

Levi's HG tips

 

Pull the motor. Don't try to do it in the car, just pull it. It makes the cam and head bolt torque down process a piece of cake, and you can replace the rear main seal and reseal the inspection cover that often seeps oil.

 

You need more than just the head gaskets. At minimum you need intake and exhaust gaskets and possibly valve cover and spark plug hole gaskets if they are damaged or old. If its been awhile, get an engine gasket set. It comes with just about every seal in the engine except the front and rear main seals, which are about $10 ea. Replace them now, they are easy if you pull the engine.

 

Make sure you have some sort of penetrating spray on hand. I used about half a can of WD40, stuff works great. Give the spray time to do its thing. Look ahead, see what you will be taking off and spray the bolts down about 30 to 60 min before you start wrenching on them.

 

Have a plan for removing broken or stripped bolts because there is a very good chance you will have a few. DO NOT HEAT BOLTS THAT THREAD INTO ALUMINUM! That is just about every bolt on the engine. I cherried one of my motor mount nuts, but it was a stripped nut on the bottom of the mount. The aluminum will expand at a faster rate than the bolt, locking it in tighter.

 

Pre-plan how you are going to break the crank pulley bolt loose. The Haynes says use a chain wrench and a breaker bar. Yeah, right. I made a 3' long spanner and used a 1/2" drive socket wrench with a 2' cheater and I still had to apply quite a bit of oomph to get it to crack loose.

 

Get a new timing belt. If the one that you have has very low miles on it (<10K), you can keep it, but you will need to make some marks on it before you take it off. Line up the marks on your cam sprockets and make some highly visible (white or yellow) marks on the back (smooth) side of the belt. Brand new belts have marks which get worn away after a few minutes of driving. If you don't, the manual will have you counting teeth, and thats a bitch. Also take very careful note of where the crank is located and mark it carefully. Taking these steps saves you lots of time when trying to set the timing back up.

 

Inspect your hoses and clamps a few days before you start. Hoses should be firm not squishy and crack each clamp to make sure it will let go without breaking. Get replacements beforehand if needed. Nothing worse than not being able to start the car because your short one small hose clamp for the trans cooler line...

 

If you have the auto trans, take note of where the torque converter is positioned before you drop the motor back in. Rotate it so one of the bolt bosses is lined up with the access hole on top of the block, about 11 o'clock as you are looking at it from the front and rotate the flexplate to approx. the same position. Makes mating the two much easier.

 

Clearly label all wiring and hoses so you know where they go. I used masking tape and marked everything in the order I removed it. I used capital letters. When I ran out of letters I doubled them up (AA, BB, CC...) Don't have to know what it is, just where it goes.

 

Keep a detailed list of what you remove and keep it in order. If you follow it in reverse, you avoid skipping anything and you won't waste time removing something that is now in your way.

 

Keep hardware with the assembly it belongs to, reduces search time and mistakes.

 

Take your time. If you get frustrated, walk away or do something else. Clean the engine bay or take a break and go for a walk. I did it several times and it helps keep you on track.

 

Hope some of these help, a lot are common sense but are easily forgotten.

 

GOOD LUCK

[jonklein611]

I really like the tape idea.... Never thought of that. Now all I need is an engine hoist and convince the folks that this is a good idea....

[Catch22ska4]

Levi-

Hey what did you end up doing for the gaskets/seals? Full kit? Either way just trying to decide the easiest and most cost effective way to go. I'm in the same boat as you were seeing as my dad and I are big chevy guys and the only experience I have is with my '72 Nova so any other suggestions would be awesome. We should have all the tools like the cherry picker but is it really worth pulling of out? Thanks for any help.

[MasterChief]

It's a full weekend job. I figured it would take a full Saturday, but it carried over well into Sunday. Make arrangements for transportation just in case you don't have it done or, god forbid, you find a major problem. My cheeks were clenched hard when I popped each head off. I was afraid I was going to see a crack in a head or worse yet, a cylinder. They looked great though. The cylinders hardly show any wear at all. They still have the factory hone pattern on the walls. Lovin' that. Here is a list of things I learned that may help you save some time and maybe some money.

 

 

Get more than just the head gaskets. If its been awhile, get an engine gasket set. It comes with just about every seal in the engine except the front and rear main seals, which are about $10 ea. Replace them now, they are easy if you pull the engine.

 

 

GOOD LUCK

 

Thanks for the good tips. We are just starting this job on my son's Legacy GT2.5. It is new to him about 4 months ago. We got the timing belt cover off and noticied that it has a fairly new timing belt. It also looks like the timing is off. When one side lines up the other is one tooth off. We will pull the heads sometime this week or on the weekend. I hope we don't find bent valves or worst.

 

Did you get the Fel pro kit? Or buy gaskets seperately?

[levis76]

Levi-

Hey what did you end up doing for the gaskets/seals? Full kit? Either way just trying to decide the easiest and most cost effective way to go. I'm in the same boat as you were seeing as my dad and I are big chevy guys and the only experience I have is with my '72 Nova so any other suggestions would be awesome. We should have all the tools like the cherry picker but is it really worth pulling of out? Thanks for any help.

 

Yeah, all of my engine experience is with Ford/Chevy, this was my first venture in the foreign market. As far as what gaskets you should get, you absolutely need intake, exhaust, valve cover, spark plug hole, and of course head gaskets. I would also highly recommend doing the cam seals, and the rear main seal if you pull the motor, and reseal the inspection cover next to the main seal. My slow oil seep turned out to be that inspection cover not the main seal, but I went ahead and replaced the seal because it was there and I had one. One more thing, make sure you have metric tools, wrenches, deep and shallow sockets, mainly 10,12,and 14.

[Catch22ska4]

Thanks for the info. Am I way off or did just the head gasket kits alone cost around $300? That just seemed a little pricey and thats not including any of the others. Pretty sure we have the metric tools but I guarantee there will be something missing. I'm hoping to start in the next day or two and have it finished by Sunday since I have to fit it between school and work.

[levis76]

Hmm, $300 for just the HGs is too much. I paid $340 for an entire engine gasket set. Shop around, maybe find an import auto parts store. I bought mine from S & G Import Auto Parts here in Michigan. They were much cheaper than the dealer and I got better quality gaskets and they had them all in stock at their wharehouse, I just had to wait 30 min while a driver brought them to the store. I was so happy with the service they gave me, I spent another $350 on brake rotors and front calipers too, which they also had in stock. They do mail order service, I can give you contact info you like. Phone number is, are you ready, 586-777-7777. No joke, all 7s. Good luck brother. I hope your engine internals are as pretty as mine and may all your bolts break loose rather than break off. I will include you in my prayers to the Subaru gods tonight.