So you buy a 3.0 Legacy if you...

[vr4Legacy]

SeeeYa....

 

Very elegantly put. Probably why I'll be switching to a H-6 in 6-8 years when I buy my next new Subaru. Hopefully by then they'll be above par on the finer details too.

 

For now, I'm still young, want to modify, and still drive too fast. But I'm slowly maturing past that.

[VTGT]

wait you traded in your IPT 5eat Avo380 powered Lgt for a 3.0r?

 

 

So you buy a 3.0 Legacy if you...

 

A more complete answer after more miles and time, but I can give a couple of reasons why I now have a Legacy 3.0R Limited instead of my LGT.

 

When I got the LGT I was thrilled, it was everything and more I'd imagined. But it wanted to hunt..... seemingly on its own. It hunted limits, both in power and handling. It hunted other cars to test itself against. Hunting for another piece of horsepower and hunting for another level of handling became an obsession that found outlet on autocross courses, and The Tail of the Dragon, for example. Most of all, the car hunted out the corners of wallets and checkbooks, and found them.

 

Eventually I had what I considered my own version of the best LGT, well over 400chp, cat-like handling reflexes, and excellent daily manners. But I had to watch out for ground clearances and could no longer go where I could once go. My wife no longer wanted to drive it, not a bad thing, but a not always unspoken critique of our differences. Most of all, despite a $15k+ list of 'improvements,' it was getting older and only a fool could not see that the future was going to require even more $$$, out of necessity, sooner than later. Worse, these so-called 'improvements' actually worked to devalue the investment equity. It was a wonderful experience, but with zero practical value.

 

I had become, almost sadly, bored. Enough was now too much. There was nothing more I wanted to do. It had become a maintenance exercise. Watching out for the law was a full time job. My close call list got longer. Time to move on.

 

From the first time I saw the Legacy 3.0R at our major Auto Show I knew I could like the car. Why not? It was a car with a more refined interior, better stock suspension, and a modern version of a motor I'd always liked. It was an extension of how the LegacyGT was viewed when it first debuted; a car for those who had grown past the immaturity of the WRX. To me it is a car for those who love a Subaru Legacy, but have grown beyond the immaturity of hunting for superfluous horsepower.

[Penguin]

Obviously, you don't want to tow something with a turbocharged vehicle, so a 6-cylinder Legacy seems like a great towing car.

 

 

You are aware that some of the most commonly used vehicles in the world that are used for towing or otherwise moving heavy loads employ turbochargers right? Maybe you have heard of this engine commonly referred to as a turbodiesel? Uses compression ignition, and is equipped with a turbocharger.... burns a heavier fuel..... you see them all the time in big trucks, ships, locomotives.....

 

Now you probably can find a better tow vehicle than a small displacement turbocharged engine in a sports sedan, but a slightly larger displacement naturally aspirated unit in the same sedan is not much better. At least not if we are talking about a lot of towing of heavy trailers. The engine might be up to it, but ultimately the car won't be.

[Garandman]

Now you probably can find a better tow vehicle than a small displacement turbocharged engine in a sports sedan, but a slightly larger displacement naturally aspirated unit in the same sedan is not much better. At least not if we are talking about a lot of towing of heavy trailers. The engine might be up to it, but ultimately the car won't be.

Or, not. Depends what you mean by heavy. The H6 is an excellent engine for towing and the rating of 3,000 lbs seems conservative.

 

Comparing a turbodiesel to any spark engine doesn't really pertain. I'd like to try the Subaru diesel.

 

http://dervish.smugmug.com/photos/429435977_2L6R6-L.jpg

[Siper2]

I think it's been answered pretty well, at least by the reasonable members here:

 

- Buy a GT if you want turbo kick and thrills

- Buy a 3.0R if you want smooth, linear power and the ability to run 87 octane

 

My wife has an '01 LL Bean OB, which was the first with the H-6. Back then they recommended premium fuel though, and the power is lower by about 35-40hp. Still, it's a very capable engine, with smooth acceleration and a lot of competence.

 

I do agree that a 5MT would be a nice option, though.

[Siper2]

 

You are aware that some of the most commonly used vehicles in the world that are used for towing or otherwise moving heavy loads employ turbochargers right? Maybe you have heard of this engine commonly referred to as a turbodiesel? Uses compression ignition, and is equipped with a turbocharger.... burns a heavier fuel..... you see them all the time in big trucks, ships, locomotives.....

 

Now you probably can find a better tow vehicle than a small displacement turbocharged engine in a sports sedan, but a slightly larger displacement naturally aspirated unit in the same sedan is not much better. At least not if we are talking about a lot of towing of heavy trailers. The engine might be up to it, but ultimately the car won't be.

 

 

Yes but a turbodiesel is quite different from a 2.5-liter gasoline engine. Which is still perfectly capable of towing within its class, but I just wanted to clarify for those who may take your post the wrong way.

[Siper2]

Sure would be nice if we got the 3.0R Spec.B wagon, though!

 

 

Got that right!

[Bbc84]

I should really go to the dealer and test drive a 3.0R. I knew about them when I bought my 08' LGT. but I was pretty much dead set on a White LGT 5MT didnt care about anythign else.

 

I knew there was more potential out of the 2.5 than the 3.0 so that is why I choose it.

[Siper2]

It's too bad that i-Speed doesn't have an ECU map for the H-6, that'd be fun. Maybe it'll happen, who knows?

[ehsnils]

I can see the use for the 3.0 as the vehicle that's more for the person doing a lot of long-distance highway driving while the turbo is the sportier alternative and the diesel is for those that do a lot of towing.

 

So it depends on who you are, driving style and what makes best sense for you.

 

I have had a turbo car too, and I liked the power, but not the fuel consumption. YMMV.

[mattg]

I can't really pinpoint any other reason for this vehicle's existence.

 

and I can't really pinpoint a need for this thread's existence.

[Siper2]

Unless you're interested in an H-6.....

 

[oog61]

I wish my '06 Spec.B would last forever but it has 72k miles and I'm starting to think about the next car. I want it to be another Subie. I'm not an engine modder and the stock GT has more than enough power for me, but I do love the Spec.B handling and want something that handles comparably. The 3.0 Limited seems like a viable option but there are a couple things I'm not clear on. Does the 3.0 Limited have the same suspension and handling as a '09 Spec.B or is it a different setup? As far as exhaust options on the NA 3.0, can you get a SPT exhaust or equivalent to give it a deeper exhaust note or are you stuck with having it sound like a Camry?

 

I'd like to hear other thoughts from people who have owned or driven both the Spec.B and 3.0 Limited.

 

Thanks.

[Penguin]

Or, not. Depends what you mean by heavy. The H6 is an excellent engine for towing and the rating of 3,000 lbs seems conservative.

 

Comparing a turbodiesel to any spark engine doesn't really pertain. I'd like to try the Subaru diesel.

 

http://dervish.smugmug.com/photos/429435977_2L6R6-L.jpg

 

VVG,

 

I've got to tell you that for some reason that towing setup looks absurd, just because that sailboat is so much longer than your car.

 

Given the single axle trailer it probably weighs a lot less than I would think. Although, I have to ask what size hitch are you using on that set up?

 

I will consider a heavy load to be anything over about 4500lbs. Anyhow I don't dispute the fact that by power rating the 3.0L H6 (or the 2.5L Turbo) have what it takes to pull a load. In fact seeing as how they both make as much horsepower as a 10-15 year old V8 that you would find in a 1/2 ton pickup, both engines could do pretty well once a heavy load is moving (low end torque might be an issue). As long as the engine had adequate cooling, and the transmission had adequate cooling I would guess that either of those two engines could yank around the sedan/wagon they lived in plus another 5000-6000lbs of weight. Getting all that started might be a pain for both engines, although the H6 would be markedly better in that regard since there is no turbo to spool. I also have a feeling that both engines would have trouble with towing objects that are shaped like a camper or enclosed trailer because of all the wind resistance. Getting them started wouldn't be as big of an issue as trying to pull them at highway speeds. Even if the camper only weighed 4500lbs that big box you are pulling through the air behind you is going to require a lot of horsepower at 65-70mph. In my experience with my old LGT the car doesn't have adequate cooling capacity to drag around an enclosed trailer at highway speeds above 65mph. Especially when you introduce long uphill grades of many miles or more. Maybe the H6 keeps it's cool better since it doesn't have a turbocharger trapping heat in the engine bay.

 

Power issues aside, the biggest limiting factor is the actual vehicle we are talking about towing with. It's a relatively small, light sedan or wagon with an independent rear suspension. The designers of the car engineered it with good handling, and ride characteristics as the primary goals. Unfortunately that will not translate into a suspension that is really capable of handling a huge amount of weight, be it cargo in the back of the vehicle or the tongue weight of a heavy trailer. Either one will compress the rear end pretty much to the bump stops and make the car ride and handle pretty badly. Also on many vehicles with an independent rear suspension the load will end up giving the rear wheels an improper camber that will result in really uneven tire wear. So to my mind the limiting factor for towing with the LGT/Outback is not so much the engine (as long as it can keep it's cool and the driver respects the limits of how fast it will tow), as the chassis/suspension. It just wasn't designed to tow heavy or often.

[Garandman]

///

Power issues aside, the biggest limiting factor is the actual vehicle we are talking about towing with. It's a relatively small, light sedan or wagon with an independent rear suspension. The designers of the car engineered it with good handling, and ride characteristics as the primary goals. Unfortunately that will not translate into a suspension that is really capable of handling a huge amount of weight, be it cargo in the back of the vehicle or the tongue weight of a heavy trailer. Either one will compress the rear end pretty much to the bump stops and make the car ride and handle pretty badly. Also on many vehicles with an independent rear suspension the load will end up giving the rear wheels an improper camber that will result in really uneven tire wear. So to my mind the limiting factor for towing with the LGT/Outback is not so much the engine (as long as it can keep it's cool and the driver respects the limits of how fast it will tow), as the chassis/suspension. It just wasn't designed to tow heavy or often.

So, what have you towed with your LGT? Or is this all hypothetical? I haven't seen anyone towing much over 1,500 lbs with a 2.5T.

[Penguin]

So, what have you towed with your LGT? Or is this all hypothetical? I haven't seen anyone towing much over 1,500 lbs with a 2.5T.

 

When I moved to South Dakota I towed an enclosed U-haul trailer with the LGT. It had to be pushing 2500lbs maybe more, and was shaped like a brick. Anyhow the car didn't have much trouble getting the load started (had the 5eat), and it did just fine until I really started climbing into the Black Hills. At that point I started getting heat issues with the motor trying to go the speed limit on I-90 (speed limit is 75mph), if I slowed down to 65mph there wasn't a big problem so that is what I did. I think the combination of steady climbing mixed with rolling hills plus the pretty high speed was just too much. On flat land it pulled like a champ.

 

The worst though was climbing a 6.5-7% grade that was every bit of 7 miles long. I think I topped out at 50mph or there abouts. The poor LGT was not a happy camper at all, and even though I may have had enough power to pull faster up that hill by that point in time I didn't want to risk overheating. I drive the same road all the time with my truck and have towed a much heavier trailer and done the speed limit (with power to spare) all the way up. Then again the truck was made for towing, and the LGT was not.

 

In fairness though, my LGT was not the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned so the overheating issues may have been related to some other issue with that engine. I can report that the temp. guage on the car is virtually worthless. It jus goes from displaying temp in the middle to all of the sudden 3/4 of the way to overheated. Damn dummy gauges.

[Siper2]

I wish my '06 Spec.B would last forever but it has 72k miles and I'm starting to think about the next car. I want it to be another Subie. I'm not an engine modder and the stock GT has more than enough power for me, but I do love the Spec.B handling and want something that handles comparably. The 3.0 Limited seems like a viable option but there are a couple things I'm not clear on. Does the 3.0 Limited have the same suspension and handling as a '09 Spec.B or is it a different setup? As far as exhaust options on the NA 3.0, can you get a SPT exhaust or equivalent to give it a deeper exhaust note or are you stuck with having it sound like a Camry?

 

I'd like to hear other thoughts from people who have owned or driven both the Spec.B and 3.0 Limited.

 

Thanks.

 

I *think* the springs remain the same for all GTs and the 3.0R, but the 3.0R only has Bilsteins up front. Maybe?

 

http://www.cars101.com/subaru/legacy/legacy2009.html

 

Some info there. If that page is right, the 3.0R also has the standard Legacy brakes, not the bigger GT/spec.B ones. If not, Joe needs to get on the stick and update that thing.

 

 

As for exhaust, I'm not sure. If the 3.0R has dual cans, and the 2.5i doesn't, then you'd likely need a turbo axleback and N/A midpipe. Or that would be my guess. I tried to find out what exhausts would work for my wife's '01 Outback H-6 for a long time, and a lot of people weren't sure. The layout looks the same as most past non-turbo Legacies and Imprezas, but the factory diagram of the system has a couple funky "port" type things, sticking out the side of the stock exhaust somewhere in the back.

[SeeeeeYa]

I wish my '06 Spec.B would last forever but it has 72k miles and I'm starting to think about the next car. I want it to be another Subie. I'm not an engine modder and the stock GT has more than enough power for me, but I do love the Spec.B handling and want something that handles comparably. The 3.0 Limited seems like a viable option but there are a couple things I'm not clear on. Does the 3.0 Limited have the same suspension and handling as a '09 Spec.B or is it a different setup? As far as exhaust options on the NA 3.0, can you get a SPT exhaust or equivalent to give it a deeper exhaust note or are you stuck with having it sound like a Camry?

 

I'd like to hear other thoughts from people who have owned or driven both the Spec.B and 3.0 Limited.

 

Thanks.

 

The Legacy 3.0R Limited has the inverted Bilstein "sport tuned" suspension, but not the forged aluminum suspension components of the SpecB. While I haven't driven both, the 3.0R Limited's handling is starlingly good. My GT had Tein coilovers, JDM RSB, and various poly bushings and inserts to speak for its superb handling. But first time behind the wheel there were some aspects of the 3.0R's suspension that were obviously superior. Some surface street roughness, for example, is much smoother now. Yet there is no inappropriate lean or mushyness to the handling. Frankly, I didn't expect it to work so well.

 

Without going to options available only in Japan the 3.0R exhaust choices include only the axel back mufflers available for the Legacy. Admittedly, especially after my Megan CBE, the 3.0R is VERY quiet. Interestingly, while I am tempted to see how it sounds without ANY mufflers I am exploring what being quietly aggressive is like. I'm not sure regular 2.5 H4 legacy muffler answers are H6 answers. Something tells me there is a big difference in how each is tuned, and a true H6 muffler may never appear commercially. I've heard the engine without mufflers and it is intoxicating. But this refined an automobile would not wear such an exhaust well. Time.

 

A brief comment on the 3.0R's brakes; they're the same brakes as the GT but for whatever reason theiy work far better than my 05's ever did new, and I'm not sure they're not better than they got later with Hawk pads. Siimply excellent brakes. Plus, I like the silver finish on the calipers instead of that weathered rust of the GT's.

 

Subaru engines, regardless of exhausts or mufflers, never sound like any other motor, except other H4 and H6 engines. Not many.

[Garandman]

The H6 has two mufflers routed to two pipes, but from a single center pipe.

 

I talked to a muffler shop and they thought it would be pretty easy to replace all that with a single larger muffler, saving weight and allowing you to tune the sound.

[SeeeeeYa]

Improving the power and handleing of a car has nothing to do with the word immature. Are some racers little immature kids? Yes. Are some well off older men and women with houses and garages full of high hp modded cars? Yes. Your body will feel old enough soon enough on its own

 

I chose this from among those whose panties got wadded by my references to maturity. What I was referring to was not MY outlook, per se, but the similaritiy that surrounded the WRX > LGT move years ago. Apparently some forget.

 

Here is an example; http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21880&postcount=15

 

My comment about superflous horsepower stands. By the time I traded my LGT my logs indicated nearly 450chp of safe, superfluous, horsepower. Superfluous because I had never raced it, either on the street or on the track. I enjoyed the power, but I never used a fraction of it in everyday motoring. If I had created and used it as a dual purpose car the horsepower would have been appropriate, although frankly it would have been done differently depending on the race venue. As it was I merely "improved" my initially great LGT out of a life long passion for cars. There are no 1/4mile strips in WV, and my lifestyle anymore does not, like it once did, encourage me to cross state lines every week for my speed fix. I have a motorcycle that can more than supply that.

[Guest]

Legacy is rated to tow 2000 kg (~4400 lbs.) in Europe.

[NSFW]

To me it is a car for those who love a Subaru Legacy, but have grown beyond the immaturity of hunting for superfluous horsepower.

 

I resemble that remark.

[AKLGT]

I chose this from among those whose panties got wadded by my references to maturity. What I was referring to was not MY outlook, per se, but the similaritiy that surrounded the WRX > LGT move years ago. Apparently some forget.

 

Here is an example; http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21880&postcount=15

 

My comment about superflous horsepower stands. By the time I traded my LGT my logs indicated nearly 450chp of safe, superfluous, horsepower. Superfluous because I had never raced it, either on the street or on the track. I enjoyed the power, but I never used a fraction of it in everyday motoring. If I had created and used it as a dual purpose car the horsepower would have been appropriate, although frankly it would have been done differently depending on the race venue. As it was I merely "improved" my initially great LGT out of a life long passion for cars. There are no 1/4mile strips in WV, and my lifestyle anymore does not, like it once did, encourage me to cross state lines every week for my speed fix. I have a motorcycle that can more than supply that.

so what did you do with the car?

 

bummer....

 

I too grew tired of pouring more money into the LGT, however instead of buying a 3.0R, I bought the STI hatch. I still want more power (and much better handling). and yes, I can deem myself somewhat immature as I refuse to grow up, even with crossing another year older the past week.... Perhaps I'm going through a mid life crisis or maybe it's just my insurance is now affordable to own 2 STI's (since my tickets finally fell off!)

[Garandman]

so what did you do with the car?

 

bummer....

 

I too grew tired of pouring more money into the LGT, however instead of buying a 3.0R, I bought the STI hatch. I still want more power (and much better handling). and yes, I can deem myself somewhat immature as I refuse to grow up, even with crossing another year older the past week.... Perhaps I'm going through a mid life crisis or maybe it's just my insurance is now affordable to own 2 STI's (since my tickets finally fell off!)

What size snow tires did you put on the STi?

[SeeeeeYa]

so what did you do with the car?

 

bummer....

 

I too grew tired of pouring more money into the LGT, however instead of buying a 3.0R, I bought the STI hatch. I still want more power (and much better handling). and yes, I can deem myself somewhat immature as I refuse to grow up, even with crossing another year older the past week.... Perhaps I'm going through a mid life crisis or maybe it's just my insurance is now affordable to own 2 STI's (since my tickets finally fell off!)

 

It wasn't so much the pouring of the money as it was that I had finished doing what I'd intended to do. I hadn't indulged my car modding side in many years, I'd had motorcycles filling that space in me quite well. But when the 05 LGT came out it coincided with economic opportunity, then current autocrossing interests, and a long held interest to explore a modern turbocharged car. It was a powerful, exciting, rewarding and fulfilling four years.

 

When I realized the juice had been mostly squeezed from this orange I began "looking" again. Spec B? WRX STi? Wait for the turbo six?

 

But life is short, it had been done and doing more would more define an obsession than an interest. It had come time for other interests. Frankly, despite a lifelong love affair with the automobile, horsepower is but one of their facets. With this 3.0R Limited I still have more than adequate horsepower, superb real world handling, a techy sweet sounding engine that satisfies the motorhead in me, and more personal amenities in a known and aesthetically satisfying platform. Mostly, however, it represents a release.... from serious investments in time, time spent tuning, time spent in front of a computer either researching or communicating, and time spent focused on the car itself.

 

Time is a finite luxury. We only get so much. Now it is time to address some of my other interests, and duties in fact. It is time to look outward into the world around me, instead of inward, evaluating the car in some manner or other. Release from obsession like release from addiction is not easy nor quick. I'm looking forward to springtime with an open agenda.