GEE-OTTO Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Running lean will give you all the noise you want. For a while.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayMitch2.5i Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 When it comes down to it, it depends on how much you want to spend for more HP. Even with the CAI your only looking at 6-8 HP to the wheels. No matter what when you get cooler air into the engine your gonna get better performance but most of it would be top end power. I think $50 for a little more power is a good deal and between the k&n and avo there both good filters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NORULZleggy Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Did I really read above that the guy wanted to put on an intake for the bling and sound affect. I just would never put anything on my car that would not give me more power. I want the full stock look but have performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 When it comes down to it, it depends on how much you want to spend for more HP. Even with the CAI your only looking at 6-8 HP to the wheels. No matter what when you get cooler air into the engine your gonna get better performance but most of it would be top end power. I think $50 for a little more power is a good deal and between the k&n and avo there both good filters. The only flaw I see in this logic is neglect to understand that the stock air intake pulls air from outside anyway, there isn't any colder air to be had with a CAI. If you notice, the stock intake system's air comes from OUTSIDE the car's engine compartment. It is sealed from any heat source from the car and accepts only ambient air at the front of the car. In addition, a CAI will LOSE any benefit from air forced into the intake by higher speed, not gain from it whereas the stock intake WILL, being located at a high pressure zone at the front of the car. Combine these facts with the proven negative influences on MAF intake calibrations and it's easy to see a CAI on an otherwise stock NA Subaru motor is a performance downgrade. If you think otherwise, look up the word rationalization. That said, as soon as I feel my stock air filter is getting dirty.... say six months from now... I will be getting the AVO replacement. As said, it has better flow, filters well, and can be washed and reused. K and N filters are not even a consideration after a lifetime of proving conclusively they pass far more harmful, abrasive dirt than any other filter solution. In a racing only solution where you're mainly concerned with keeping big stuff from being injested, sure. The debilitating issues their oiling requirements can introduce only seals that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 The only flaw I see in this logic is neglect to understand that the stock air intake pulls air from outside anyway, there isn't any colder air to be had with a CAI. If you notice, the stock intake system's air comes from OUTSIDE the car's engine compartment. It is sealed from any heat source from the car and accepts only ambient air at the front of the car. In addition, a CAI will LOSE any benefit from air forced into the intake by higher speed, not gain from it whereas the stock intake WILL, being located at a high pressure zone at the front of the car. Combine these facts with the proven negative influences on MAF intake calibrations and it's easy to see a CAI on an otherwise stock NA Subaru motor is a performance downgrade. If you think otherwise, look up the word rationalization. That said, as soon as I feel my stock air filter is getting dirty.... say six months from now... I will be getting the AVO replacement. As said, it has better flow, filters well, and can be washed and reused. K and N filters are not even a consideration after a lifetime of proving conclusively they pass far more harmful, abrasive dirt than any other filter solution. In a racing only solution where you're mainly concerned with keeping big stuff from being injested, sure. The debilitating issues their oiling requirements can introduce only seals that decision. Next argument i get in on here I hope you're on my side hahahahaha you just shot down all the hopes and dreams of the 2.5i guys that wanted a CAI:spin:. And i ponder the same thing why change the stock setup when it is a CAI? the only mod I would do maybe would be to decrease turbulence along the path of flow ( remove corrugated piping replace wil smooth piping) and add a AVO panel filter. However, there could be a good argument presented that the smaller overall diameter of the stock setup may prohibit the maximum amount of air that can be moved through the system hence a CAI while not being able to channel the ar from outside the engine bay it can move a more consistent volume or air constanly and that factor would justify its installation. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goBlue Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 well how much does just a filter cost approx? I got my K&N for $20 from Amazon. On the other hand, I have an AEM CAI in my RSX. When it was first put in, I felt a difference in acceleration. After a while, I almost forget about it. With the windows up, a CAI won't make your car that much louder. For the Legacy, just get a K&N and be done with it since there aren't too many parts out there, especially for the 2.5i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayMitch2.5i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The stock air box is not by any means a "CAI". All modern cars obviously draw there air from the outside in some way. But a cold air intake takes away all the crazy bends and reductions and allows the straightes direct path to the intake manifold as well as gets the the intake away from the heat of the engine compartment. I agree that modifications to the 2.5i are slim to none and realy won't get you far. But that never stopes people from doing mods to the hondas or even ford esscorts. It's all in good fun to see what you can do dif from stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryouske Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Are there even any mods out there for our cars that improve things OTHER than appearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.sane Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Are there even any mods out there for our cars that improve things OTHER than appearance? of course there are. almost every suspension mod for the LGT will fit on the 2.5i except for the front sway bar (though Rallitek makes one for the 2.5i) to name a few mods for our engines, there are: - Group A throttle body spacer - Group A alternator pulley - Group A crank pulley - Grimmspeed intake manifold spacer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 of course there are. almost every suspension mod for the LGT will fit on the 2.5i except for the front sway bar (though Rallitek makes one for the 2.5i) to name a few mods for our engines, there are: - Group A throttle body spacer - Group A alternator pulley - Group A crank pulley - Grimmspeed intake manifold spacer what numbers do these mods produce ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.sane Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 what numbers do these mods produce ? I'd say all those listed mods, plus a custom 2.5" cat-back exhaust and a cold air intake could be good for about 20WHP. If you wanna throw money on a Rallitek P6 ECU and tune all those mods together it could be a total of 30+ WHP. these numbers may be a bit optimistic though I'd spend more money towards the suspension IMO. This car has lots of potential in the handling department. I'm sure nobody is taking the 2.5i to a drag strip. In terms of engine mods, I personally will go for: - AVO panel filter (installed) - Group A throttle body spacer (bought, not installed) - Group A alternator pulley (bought, not installed) - Group A crank pulley (bought, not installed) - Grimmspeed intake manifold spacer (buying soon) All these would be at a cost of about $400, which isnt too bad for a little more power/response. I just don't think it'd be worth putting in a $200 intake, custom making a cat-back exhaust, and a $400-$500 ECU for this car. I'd rather save some money and wait for the AVO turbo kit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite3360 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The only flaw I see in this logic is neglect to understand that the stock air intake pulls air from outside anyway, there isn't any colder air to be had with a CAI. If you notice, the stock intake system's air comes from OUTSIDE the car's engine compartment. It is sealed from any heat source from the car and accepts only ambient air at the front of the car. True about it being sealed off from the engine bay, but if you can stick the intake all the way down to basically the ground, there is more air available to it. Basically a combo of a ram air/ cold air intake. I got the Injen CAI on mine, meant for the 2005 2.5 rs. I had to cut a little bit of the splashguard out, but the filter is sitting basically right above the ground (i got a hydroshield on the filter so it doesnt suck up any water). I have to say, it sounds awesome, totally different than before and I do feel a little more in the mid rpm range, of course only a modest improvement. But I HAD to get rid of all that nasty looking plumbing leading up to the intake manifold. Thats the main problem I have right there. With the Injen CAI, all that crap is removed and you get a nice clean look. Putting in a high flow panel filter in the stock location may be a lot cheaper than a whole CAI setup, but it doesnt do anything about that huge airbox and the resonator inside of it. Thats my biggest beef with the stock setup. Other than that, if you werent looking to go that far, this seems like a good option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The only flaw I see in this logic is neglect to understand that the stock air intake pulls air from outside anyway, there isn't any colder air to be had with a CAI. If you notice, the stock intake system's air comes from OUTSIDE the car's engine compartment. It is sealed from any heat source from the car and accepts only ambient air at the front of the car. In addition, a CAI will LOSE any benefit from air forced into the intake by higher speed, not gain from it whereas the stock intake WILL, being located at a high pressure zone at the front of the car. Combine these facts with the proven negative influences on MAF intake calibrations and it's easy to see a CAI on an otherwise stock NA Subaru motor is a performance downgrade. If you think otherwise, look up the word rationalization. True about it being sealed off from the engine bay, but if you can stick the intake all the way down to basically the ground, there is more air available to it. Basically a combo of a ram air/ cold air intake. I got the Injen CAI on mine, meant for the 2005 2.5 rs. I had to cut a little bit of the splashguard out, but the filter is sitting basically right above the ground (i got a hydroshield on the filter so it doesnt suck up any water). I have to say, it sounds awesome, totally different than before and I do feel a little more in the mid rpm range, of course only a modest improvement. But I HAD to get rid of all that nasty looking plumbing leading up to the intake manifold. Thats the main problem I have right there. With the Injen CAI, all that crap is removed and you get a nice clean look. Putting in a high flow panel filter in the stock location may be a lot cheaper than a whole CAI setup, but it doesnt do anything about that huge airbox and the resonator inside of it. Thats my biggest beef with the stock setup. Other than that, if you werent looking to go that far, this seems like a good option. Look, I believe in everyone doing what they want to their own car. What I don't like to see is misleading information that might influence the less informed. Doing it for sound? Great. Doing it for looks? Great. Doing it just because your buddy has one or you want to impress your girlz? No problem. Just call an apple an apple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite3360 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 ^^ I'm questioning why you say theres no advantage to having it. Yeah if you dont have ANY mods this may not do much for you. I have a borla header and custom exhaust, along with other mods. I'm not a newb at this stuff. I'm not giving misleading information by giving you my assesment of the upgrade I got. Have you seen the stock intake box? Do you see it has a resonator in it? How do these things help when you could have a straight pipe with no air reservoirs leading straight to the intake? It does have its advantages. At higher speeds it is picking up more air - its being directly pumped into the filter. I don't know how that would be a bad thing. Plus the fact there was a noticeable improvement in the mid rpms. These are not things youre going to get just by changing a filter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 ^^ I'm questioning why you say theres no advantage to having it. Yeah if you dont have ANY mods this may not do much for you. I have a borla header and custom exhaust, along with other mods. I'm not a newb at this stuff. I'm not giving misleading information by giving you my assesment of the upgrade I got. Have you seen the stock intake box? Do you see it has a resonator in it? How do these things help when you could have a straight pipe with no air reservoirs leading straight to the intake? It does have its advantages. At higher speeds it is picking up more air - its being directly pumped into the filter. I don't know how that would be a bad thing. Plus the fact there was a noticeable improvement in the mid rpms. These are not things youre going to get just by changing a filter. Everything you say is subjective, do you do any data logging to quantify your work? There really is no sense in telling anyone to do something unless you can back it up with more than "noticeable improvement in the mid rpms." That is what I'm saying. However, were you to say you had logged X g/sec (for example) stock and after your headers you logged X++ g/sec. THOSE are things anyone will listen to without criticism. Your butt dyno is worthless to anyone but you, and going on an international forum and espousing modifications to a car that benefits from untold millions in development and decades of refinement without backing it up with data should be beneath anyone who defines themself as "not a newb." Furthermore, your comments about those "resonators" shows you need to do some research on them to gain a better understanding. Besides NOT limiting intake airflow from the outside, they are part of sophisticated tuning of that intake system that smooths and improves the engine's torque output, not decreases it. Remember, when you imagine what is going on and try to out think Subaru's engineering, that an engine is a continuously dynamic air pump operating at a FREQUENCY, not simply a static low pressure source that uses a "straight pipe" as an intake conduit. Big big difference. Get yourself some tools, a cable and free programs, and put your experience to use. I'm sure you will benefit, and others will benefit from your work as well. I believe in headers, especially for NA engines. But personally I'd want to know exactly what they did for me. I also see benefits in aftermarket intake systems, but also understand the complexity involved in getting something out of them besides bling and sound. In the end I will repeat, I understand anyone wanting to improve their cars, I've been doing it for, lets see..... over fifty years? I also understand people doing things just for the sake of being unique and making their car reflect their personality. It is what makes all us car nuts work. Just go beyond subjective speculation and provide some raw data for people to chew on.... or simply admit what you did is...... what you did. There is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite3360 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Look, I don't have a dyno chillin in my garage to go run tests of before/after with or without the intake. Injen makes these specific for the EJ253. Injen is not a brand that would just make something because it looks good. That may be someones prerogative for getting one, but its built with performance in mind. I read in a tuning magazine a few weeks ago (if i can find the article i will post it) about several tests they did with different intakes for a Subaru Impreza. While it was turbocharged, they showed data to support that the Injen intake was the best one you could buy. It showed that the increase in air could lead to your engine thinking it is running lean, but its really not. Therefore, it makes your engine compensate by running slightly rich. A couple extra horses that you may or may not notice, but the dyno picked up on it. Its a mod that has been extensively covered in the N/A forums. http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58727&highlight=injen Also, if you were to get the Rallitek piggyback ECU (which I plan on doing in the near future), its stage 2 map is preset for the Injen intake to take full advantage of the extra air your engine is getting. While the stock tuning may not allow for a massive increase in HP without the piggyback ECU, massive horsepower isnt expected from an intake, no matter what kind of vehicle it is. It is a little something you can do for a N/A car that isnt very fast to begin with. Ok, I'm done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Look, I don't have a dyno chillin in my garage to go run tests of before/after with or without the intake. Injen makes these specific for the EJ253. Injen is not a brand that would just make something because it looks good. That may be someones prerogative for getting one, but its built with performance in mind. I read in a tuning magazine a few weeks ago (if i can find the article i will post it) about several tests they did with different intakes for a Subaru Impreza. While it was turbocharged, they showed data to support that the Injen intake was the best one you could buy. It showed that the increase in air could lead to your engine thinking it is running lean, but its really not. Therefore, it makes your engine compensate by running slightly rich. A couple extra horses that you may or may not notice, but the dyno picked up on it. Its a mod that has been extensively covered in the N/A forums. http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58727&highlight=injen Also, if you were to get the Rallitek piggyback ECU (which I plan on doing in the near future), its stage 2 map is preset for the Injen intake to take full advantage of the extra air your engine is getting. While the stock tuning may not allow for a massive increase in HP without the piggyback ECU, massive horsepower isnt expected from an intake, no matter what kind of vehicle it is. It is a little something you can do for a N/A car that isnt very fast to begin with. Ok, I'm done ^^^:lol: And data logging is something you do with free software and a cheap cable, btw, not necessarily a dyno. Not that you'll listen. Enjoy your mind games. Just trying to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbite3360 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 ^^ You crazy. It may have been turbocharged, big whoop. The engines are practically the same. The only car with less mods than a 2.5i is a 3.0R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEE-OTTO Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 ^^ You crazy. It may have been turbocharged, big whoop. The engines are practically the same. The only car with less mods than a 2.5i is a 3.0R. True that:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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