Brakes: How to buy brake upgrades?

[Xenonk]

http://www.gtworx.com or contact http://www.racecompengineering.com for that info.

[praedet]

Keefe,

I propose annotating the top with stages like this...

Stg 1

Pads, fluid

Stg 1.5

Stg 1 + lines, fluid

Stg 2

Stg 1 + F+R Rotors

Stg 2.5

Stg 2 w/ 2-piece F Rotors

Stg 3

Stg 2 + Calipers

Stg 3.5

Stg 2.5 + Calipers

Stg 4

Stg 1 or 2 + front BBK

Stg 5

F & R BBK

[Xenonk]

unlike power mods, car control is different issue. Suspension and brakes and tires should be done in a way to meet your needs of the situation. A good example is:

 

There is no point in running a set of tarmac coilovers if the driver tends to take the car offroading and needs something similar to stock ride to adapt to the situation

 

So in the brake situation, I dont think everyone needs to run lines, nor I dont think everyone needs BBKs or pads as well if it doesnt suit their needs.

 

These are things that you upgrade based on what you need to accomplish. If you look from my stand point for SCCA autox rules, I can only go up to the Stage 2 or 2.5 setup.. could I use more? Sure.

 

Let's leave this free to choose based on what people need.. it's definitely overkill for a person to have a stage 5 kit when it's just going to be a daily driven car.. it's just fueling the notion of having stuff for the sake of having stuff. It's silly to have a street car running on STREET pads with a set of 12 piston caliper on stock sized rotors (mocking at the stage 3 setup) and expect it to run well on the track.. it's just not going to happen.

 

Oh btw, you are missing stage 6, 7 and 8 (if this was the case):

 

Stg 6

Brake Duct Cooling System

 

Stg 7

Dual Master Cylinder

 

Stg 8

ABS reprogrammed or disable

In-Car Brake Bias Switch

 

 

honestly, you can mix and match what you need to make it work. I, for one, see no point of a person getting a stage 5 kit when they are still running on street tires.. how much lock up does one need? Also, if one wants better pedal feel, someone can get even better thinner lines and a bigger master cylinder to move even more fluid... will this help brake distance? I dont think so at all.

 

And you cant really compete in brake pads giving performance IF it's not working in its intended range.. As a warning, please dont think you can use stock pads and actually try to out-brake a Porsche GT3 into turn 1 at 160+ mph on the 3rd brake marker, your pads can't take that kind of beating, and dont think that your upgraded street pads can do that too, because it wont.

 

I might have to bust out some other info or FAQs or "Keefe's Recommondation" list that may clear some things up that will seem sound and direct to ensure that the performance will fit the needs of the owner's desires.

[edkwon]

Sti Brembo front and rear kits are direct swaps for the Legacy front and rear calipers, correct?

 

Ed

[Xenonk]

Fronts are, rears are not.

[Guest]

Fronts are, rears are not.

 

What year STI? Any? I guess 04 only. So what about rear Brembo BBK? Whar are the compatible with? Regular WRX?

[Xenonk]

yes, 04..

 

you'll need an adapter kit and some other stuff for the rear Brembo stuff.. you'll have to look more on the boards for that one.. I dont know the full answer on this particular setup because I frankly feel that the stock brakes are just as good.. but I'll keep reading up on the conversion for Brembo rear BBK..

[Guest]

Yeah, I am asking kinda out of curiosity.

 

I am running Endless SSM pads now (mainly by your recommendation here). I am happy with them. Nice feel and bite and no dust!

[Deer Killer]

I left this open for everyone to make up their own choice of which company to go with.. but here is the range specs that you should be looking for:

 

Operating Temperature : 0 degrees F and up (some are 32 degrees F). Look for a wide range if you can. I believe the Carbotech Bobcats are 32F to 750F.

 

Coeff. of Friction: Look for something high, something above 0.38 and up. I believe Carbotech Bobcats have something high as 0.45 and up. Stock is about 0.28 to 0.32... this number represents the amount of initial bite you will feel.. this number will also relate to how much heat you can build up to warp your brakes IF you are the type that ride on the brakes on your daily commute. Change your braking habits and you won't have warping rotors

 

Brake Dust/Noise: I am leaving this up to everyone to decide.. some are noisy, some are quiet.. some are really dusty, while some are dust-free.

 

Where are we supposed to find all the temperature and friction coefficients? I've been going through all the manufacturer websites and they don't have specs listed either.. Which is extremely fishy, but still useless. The only information I can find is on project-mu, but all their brake pads start at 0C, consider it's going to be below freezing for most of the winter here, does me no good.

[Xenonk]

you can find it Endless post all of that stuff for their brake pads.

 

You need better searching skills

 

Here's a thread I did some info contribution of Endless SS-M pads:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25491&highlight=endless+pads

 

specifically post #18:

Here's Satisfied's decription of the GS5:

 

The top performer in our Carbon-Ceramic friction line, GS5 is a flawless choice for street performance and amateur racing enthusiasts. Delivering a friction coefficient up to 0.49 in an operating temperature range of 100 – 850°F, GS5 generates medium to high torque and virtually flat-line output for consistent, linear stopping power, power, hot or cold.

 

The Endless SS-Y operates from 30°F to 720°F with a friction coefficient range of 0.38 to 0.48 and is more comparable to the GS5.

 

The Endless SS-M operates from 35°F to 990°F with a friction coefficient range of 0.3 to 0.4 for easy modulation

 

http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico5.jpghttp://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico3.jpg

 

 

 

Here is the charts for the SS-S (comparable to the HP+) and CC-X (comparable to the Ferodo DS 2500)..

 

http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico4.jpghttp://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico7.jpg

 

 

 

And for kicks, Endless has pads that are comparable to Carbotech's XP10 and XP8:

http://www.carbotecheng.com/prod-ct-compounds.htm

vs:

http://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico2.jpghttp://www.endlessusa.com/products/categories/subico1.jpg

 

I went with Carbotech pads over Endless for the dedicated track pad namely I can get the Carbotechs easier and cost less.

 

 

 

I had one that listed Carbotech Bobcats and some of their other other pads.. I had a hard time finding out the Hawk stuff, but their estimated numbers for coeff. friction and heat range was good enough for me to know and work with.

[Deer Killer]

you can find it Endless post all of that stuff for their brake pads.

 

You need better searching skills

Well I can tell those pics go back to the endless site, but I can't for the life of me find the link _from_ their own website. Also the carbotech link is dead. Can't anything on Hawk's website.. Tire rack says they have pads from -30C and up to 0.6 mu but no information on the pads there either. EBC has some info on mu but no temperature range and everybody says they suck...

 

I'm wondering if the spec-B pads are actually a bit better and just get those, for oem prices.. I'd just like a mild upgrade that's going to help pedal effort/feel/initial bite, work all season from below 0F to 100F, and not suck in some other way that is inferior to oem..

[Xenonk]

a lot of the websites are being updated.. I know endless is reworking their entire page, but the links to their brake pads still work.. it's just that on their website, they dont have a link to those pictures anymore, but the pics are still on their server.

 

Im just waiting for everyone to just update their websites.. of course, there's nothing wrong with a phone call to their engineering tech and get the numbers through them.

 

Yes, IMO, EBC does does compared to every other brake pad out there that is made for the similar price and that you can get a pad that has one or two more better attributes than theirs.

 

The easiest thing to do is talk to Eric at http://www.Brakeswap.com or Kelly at http://www.gtworx.com as they have the list of the pads that would fit your needs for practically any type of use. They sure dont have a problem if you want the NASCAR grade brake pad that can handle well over 1500F from Hawk if that's what you need (I believe that brake pad doesnt have a high mu the last time I checked).

 

90% of the pads sold now are better than OEM pads because there's so many people out there that are trying to help themselves to this vast market of aftermarket tuning. If you want some bite and you dont care about the other two factors (noise and dust), Carbotech makes some very well mannered brake pads that would fit your description as their pads are well into the .5s and .6s for mu once they are heated up.. some of their track pads have gone as high, if not, over the .7s range.

 

As for pedal effort, even if you did the lines and switched out to some Prospeed GS610 brake fluid and you STILL DON'T like the feel, then the only thing remain is to buy the Master Cylinder from the Spec B to improve it. There was a thread that many talked about the 05's pedal feel that could be related to the master cylinder.

 

If anything, do what I did, get better suspension parts to prevent head-dive / weight transfer. That way your rear brakes can be actually useful for once. Couple that with even stickier tires and basically brake issues arent even an issue by this time. My "upgrades" for track use have just been brake fluid and pads, all else was stock.. and that held up fine doing 130+ mph braking throughout the day of 160 minutes of total driving in a weekend (that's more than 100 times of 130+ down to 40 mph during the weekend). If anyone is going to crack, warp, or destroy a rotor, it's going to be me. And believe me when I do a lot of testing for brake components for the GT using different types of pads and rotor combinations and as well as tire combinations to go with that. I barely got around to even establishing a good bench mark simply that I am not at the track often enough to have similar ambient temps and track conditions to make it worth posting to show something worth looking at.

 

But through my experience and to be back on topic, the GT brakes dont suck, it's what you put them through in comparison that will make it suck. For daily driving as a CONSERVATIVE driver (because that's what the car was geared towards.. the mid 30s person that "graduated" from the life of a WRX). Seriously, if people are going to get on the brakes that hard from 100 mph down to a near dead stop all the time, maybe it's time for them to rethink what or how their driving really is because they are not understanding the difference of abusing the car and car-preservation. Think 24-hour races people, they are not out there to drive balls out, they are there to drive the car at the limit to make it last throughout the entire race.. so in that regards, it's your job as a driver/owner to make your car last as long as possible, so that means you have to re-evaluate how you take that corner or how you slow down to a redlight. If you dont care how to change your driving habits, then dont complain how fast parts wear out. It's just plain simple. There isnt a car setup in the world that can be the king of every situation. You cant take an endurance tarmac race setup and expect it to work in the snow and rally well. It's not just thinking about the comprimise, it's about understanding what aspects you are trying to comprimise.

[Xenonk]

The U.S. Endless website is down, but you can find the specs on the Japanese website (See the link for English).

http://www.endless-sport.co.jp/english/eindex.html

They rate: Noise, friction, control, pedal touch, dust. They list temp ranges in Centigrade. Here are the #'s I see:

 

ss-y: 0-380C, 0.30-0.35u

ss-x: 0-500C, 0.35-0.45u

ss-m: 0-530C, 0.30-0.40u

cc-x: 50-700C, 0.38-0.50u

 

Now for my review:

 

For me, the SS-S pads did NOT hold up at the track. They would fade after one hard lap -- I spent most of the day lifting on the straights to preserve the pads. The pad material turned grey w/ a rough surface where I assume it got overheated. As a result, the pads made some nice ripples on my clean rotors. [stock Legacy GT Wagon with Re070 street tires, best Thunderhill lap w/ SS-S ~2:18, but most laps 2:25+. ]

 

Interesting that xenonk is running SS-M with better luck, only 30C more temp range than SS-S. I apply the brakes firmly, but not as hard as many other folks.

 

My previous pads, Project Mu b-force, were ok at the track, but they wore fairly quickly, lasting only ~10k miles, 2-3 track events. The Project Mu pads did also made pretty ripple patterns on my OE rotors. They also dust more than the Endless SS-S.

 

 

I chose the SS-M because I know how hot rotors can get. Bobcats are around the 750F range of course they will overheat on the track as well. I opted the 990F of the SS-Ms because they can double as a track pad (if necessary)..

 

Typical track days on tracks that are hard on the brakes can easily climb to 1200F on the GT (after 3 weekends worth of testing and many experiences with others on the BMWs and even on my old WRX). With conservative track driving, the SS-Ms can handle the 1000F mark and after a few hot laps, just have to tone down the driving and treat it like an endurance race situation where modulation and early braking is the key.

 

I always opt people to find pads of higher operating temps north of 1000F for track days. Autox on the other hand, require low temperature range because you are only driving at most 2 miles for the entire day for an event. So you need to get those brakes hot ASAP under a short distance. If anyone gets the chance to see a friction vs temp chart brakes, there's a "dyno" looking graph that shows where the "sweet" range for the brakes to work to give you the highest coeff. of friction of the pads (hence brake pad mu's are given in a range and not some exact number). SS-Ms happen to have a HUGE range for temperatures which allows awesome application for lager cars and larger range of use but sacrificing the higher coeff. of friction of other pads. The benefit to that pad is that it's quiet and dustless, making it a real performer when it comes to having a street car that's great for daily driving. A downside to the pads is that they are priced higher than most. In my opinion, they are a great pad for what they can do, but it can sure do a lot.. so really it's a bang-for-the-buck type of brake pad for street use, especially spirited driving while looking good

 

Hope that helps.

[Louiewrx]

subscribing. Loooking for BBK for the looks more than the performance for an 07 Legacy.

[praedet]

Get the cheapest available then. I would say the K-sport one has the most looks...

[Louiewrx]

Get the cheapest available then. I would say the K-sport one has the most looks...

K sport? I was thinking of WRX 4 pots.

[BDII]

subscribe

[Xenonk]

K sport? I was thinking of WRX 4 pots.

 

that's actually a down grade.

[Louiewrx]

someone link me to ksport calipers?

[lawl]

Not sure if this was posted. (sort of skimmed the second page)

 

When looking at brakepads there are trade-offs.

 

Noise, dust, rotor-eating tendencies, initial bite, longevity, optimum operating temperatures

 

Specially designed track pads will eat your rotors away very quickly, stop horribly unless heated up, produce lots of noise and dust... but will hold up for awhile at pretty high speeds. Also they dont last too long.

 

OEM pads are usually at the opposite end of the spectrum. Less dust, easy on the rotors, decent at most temperatures. You will probably mess them up (along with rotors) pretty good though if you try to track them.

 

People here will probably want something in between, especially with stage 2's and stuff.

 

If you NEVER go on the track don't get track pads. It's just not cost effective. You'll go through rotors like toilet paper at Taco Bell. Plus you may plow through a stop sign coming out of your house because the pad couldnt stop quickly enough. People that use these typically either trailer the car to the track or swap them out before they go out. Not for the faint of heart. (Some people that use only one of the criteria above may inadvertently choose these pads for the wrong application...bad)

 

 

There are pads that are dual use- can handle a track day (may experience fade in sessions but usually at the end of a 20 minute run) with the added bonus that you can drive it home and drive it every day.

 

I'm not familiar with the ones they have for legacys but for the miata Hawk Blues or Cobalt GT-sports are the ones that fit this. They are about a notch better for the track than axxis ultimates (which I would consider aggressive street/autoX/light tracking), I would say.

 

 

Now for my legacy specific question:

What brake pads for the legacys would fit in the trackable but also daily use okay pads?

[praedet]

Endless SS-Ms...

[Xenonk]

Not sure if this was posted..

 

Specially designed track pads will eat your rotors away very quickly, stop horribly unless heated up, produce lots of noise and dust... but will hold up for awhile at pretty high speeds. Also they dont last too long.

 

OEM pads are usually at the opposite end of the spectrum. Less dust, easy on the rotors, decent at most temperatures. You will probably mess them up (along with rotors) pretty good though if you try to track them.

 

If you NEVER go on the track don't get track pads. It's just not cost effective. You'll go through rotors like toilet paper at Taco Bell. Plus you may plow through a stop sign coming out of your house because the pad couldnt stop quickly enough. People that use these typically either trailer the car to the track or swap them out before they go out. Not for the faint of heart. (Some people that use only one of the criteria above may inadvertently choose these pads for the wrong application...bad)

 

 

There are pads that are dual use- can handle a track day (may experience fade in sessions but usually at the end of a 20 minute run) with the added bonus that you can drive it home and drive it every day.

 

I'm not familiar with the ones they have for legacys but for the miata Hawk Blues or Cobalt GT-sports are the ones that fit this. They are about a notch better for the track than axxis ultimates (which I would consider aggressive street/autoX/light tracking), I would say.

 

 

Not all true for track pads as Carbotech track pads are pretty rotor friendly on their end (the DBAs and stock rotors have both survived equally 30,000 miles each and each had around 2500 miles of track driving (which is around 25 days of track driving, which is about right since I do about 11 to 12 track events a year and averaging 100 miles of driving each day).. Hawk, Performance Friction and some of the higher end of the Ferodos are rotor-eaters..

 

Just take caution for those who do drive with track pads to the track during that morning.. although it shouldnt be done, it could be done if it's a short drive and you're not using your brakes or dragging them out.. normally it IS best to change them AT the event.

 

There's a smaller scale that autocrossers want that are ideal for the spirited daily driver.. that spectrum is the harder part to find as you want a brake pad that is high in bite, can cover a larger range of temperature while still be operative in the cold.. the trade-off is the additional dust and possibly some noise.. but a certain price can fix the dust and noise issue at the expense towards a lesser bite.

 

From the brake pads I have used up to this point on the GT can go like this for the listing from a track brake pad down to daily driving (stock).. the numerical order I put them in does not mean that #1 is the best overall, it simply means that number #1 is best suited for dedicated track while number #10 is best for daily driving.. from 4-8 is great suited for autcross use for our cars... I ranked an XP8 (eventhough it is a track pad for the most part) but because our cars are soo heavy, we generate soo much heat.. the Endless SSMs can handle up to 900F, while the XP8s exceed that for it to be used better on the track.. up to date, on track, the most I ever got my rotor temps is just under 1250F (I used some rotor temp paint to test it as I got help from KNS Engineering and Brakeswap).

 

 

1. Carbotech XP16

2. Carbotech XP12

3. Carbotech XP10

4. Carbotech XP8

5. Endless SSM

6. Endless SSY

7. Endless SSS

8. Carbotech Bobcats

9. Hawk HPS

10. Endless Vita Nuovas

11. Stock

 

Whenever the HP+ comes out for our cars from Hawk, it may fall in the range of 4 or 5.. as it's another entry level track pad.. Hawk does make HT series and DT series track pads but I doubt they'll make a set for our cars in those compounds since it's not a popular pad type for them to be profitable to sell.

 

I looked around for some Titan Kai Project Mu pads, but they fall around the performance of Endless SSY range.. nothing too special. Endless CC-A and CC-X are around the 3 to 4 range, but they are pricey.

 

I havent found another pad out there that's actually cost effective and worth buying for now.

 

 

 

Now for my legacy specific question:

What brake pads for the legacys would fit in the trackable but also daily use okay pads?

 

if you are in a bind, it's best to get a set of stock brake pads for daily driving and a full set of carbotech XP16s for the track.. if you MUST drive on a track AND daily drive it, get a set of Carbotech XP8s.. the Endless SSM could handle track.. but at $400 to $450 for a full set of Endless SSM brake pads and have them get eaten up in one weekend of track, it's just simply not cost effective (unless you want to show off the fact that you can track the car and come into the pits with a spotless/dustless wheel).

[lawl]

thanks!

 

For my last 2 cars there was nothing like the carbotech you suggested.

 

they went from track/daily duty to...

 

rotor eaters.

 

Could be just the fact that our stock rotors weren't very great or that they were so cheap people didnt care about swapping them out too often. (some guys use NAPA blanks which run about 15 dollars per rotor or less for the miata. pretty cheap)

[magnetic1]

thanks!

 

For my last 2 cars there was nothing like the carbotech you suggested.

 

they went from track/daily duty to...

 

rotor eaters.

 

Could be just the fact that our stock rotors weren't very great or that they were so cheap people didnt care about swapping them out too often. (some guys use NAPA blanks which run about 15 dollars per rotor or less for the miata. pretty cheap)

 

To my knowledge, LGT OE rpelacement rotors arent that cheap, YET. Im sure as the generic knockoffs start filtering in, they would. The advantages of going to something like a DBA4000 would be a change in the internal cooling vane designs.

 

Keep in mind that while the Carbotechs do tend to be more rotor friendly, they does not mean they cause NO rotor wear. They still are more aggressive, just to a smaller extent compared with Performance Friction or comparable Hawk track compounds.

[vfrider781]

Does anybody know if the Outback XT shares the same brake setup as the LGT?