Camshaft Sensor Dealer Repair rip-off?

[glennbaz]

I need some help with a camshaft position sensor. I have a 99’ legacy 2.5. 110k miles. Timing belts replace 9k ago as regular maintenance. This week car started running rough, no acceleration. Towed to stealerhip and brought up error code P0341 Camshaft Position Circuit Range and Performance. Stealership quotes me $1500 for repair. After haggling, price is down to $875. 1st is this sensor outside the belt casing and can it be changed without much labor? 2nd, dealer claims their mechanic’s experience shows the gear goes bad and that’s where the problem will most likely be. Any thoughts? I’m 2500 miles away from the car and can visually inspect it.

Thanks

Glenn

Glennbaz@msn.com

[ehsnils]

It sounds to me that they actually don't really have a clue about the problem and wants to play it safe from their side.

 

The sensor itself shall be easily accessed on the cylinder head. From the error I can assume that it's either the sensor itself that's bad or that the connectors has oxidation. Sometimes it's enough to just remove the connector, clean it and replace the connector to make it work again.

 

The Haynes book I have is for the 2000 to 2006 Legacy and it states that for the non-turbo engine the sensor is mounted on a support behind (in car's direction of travel) the cam belt cover. (no need to remove the cam belt)

 

The procedure is relatively simple; Disconnect the sensor, remove two bolts holding the sensor support in place, remove the sensor support, remove the bold holding the sensor to the support and then replace and do everything in opposite order.

 

And of course - when having removed the sensor it's a good idea to check that the camshaft part is clean and that nothing unexpected has located itself within sensor range that can disturb the sensor.

 

In all - I would say that this is a job taking an hour or two at most unless the gear that the sensor senses really has gone bad in which case it can be that the cylinder head has to be removed, which takes a lot more time.

 

I think that a sensor replacement should be at most $200 unless the sensor is ridiculously expensive.

 

But you shall also notice that there is a slight possibility that the fault code really indicates that the timing belt has slipped. It depends on your engine if and how much slippage that's allowed before the valves meets the pistons.

[Bdubs]

If it is just the sensor they are replacing, then yes, that is way too much.

 

As stated above, the code can be thrown for a few reasons, but generally the sensor goes, and it is a rather simple replacement.

[Opie]

Cam & crank sensors are usually replaced as a set, and run less than $150 for a dealer to install them. They are fairly common on '99 Legacy's.

 

That being said, I wouldn't authorize any repair that they are diagnosing based on the mechanic's experience...how about taking the timing cover end off and inspecting the cam gear...that'll take about 10 minutes...and then you'll know for sure if it's just the sensor or a cam gear.

 

And it is very unusual for a cam gear "to go bad", is this the same dealer that did the timing belt? If the gear was questionable why didn't they replace it then?

[glennbaz]

I have to agree with all of you. I was a certified Porsche mechanic for many years rebuilding many complex pieces of machinery. I unfortuneatly don't have the repair cd with me examine the location and installation procedures for this repair. I've never seen a cam shaft gear go bad in 25 years of automotive work. I tried to find out if the cam cover, belt and gear needed to be removed to change the sensor and from the one response I got, it was YES. If I had confirmation to the contrary I would have made a much larger stink with the dealer. This dealer was not the same one that changed the timing belts 9k miles ago. This dealer said they had no way of pulling up the car repair history. I said BULL to that. As long as it was a subaru dealer in this country they should be able to pull up the records. Perhaps I am wrong and it's different then Mercedes and Porsche's. Anyone in NJ with a brick and a few minutes to drive by a dealership for me? ;-)

 

Thanks again.

Glenn

[Jon in CT]

I tried to find out if the cam cover, belt and gear needed to be removed to change the sensor and from the one response I got, it was YES. If I had confirmation to the contrary I would have made a much larger stink with the dealer.

Replacing the camshaft position sensor on a 1999 Legacy engine is a simple process. Of course, the fault might be in the wiring between the engine control module and the sensor.

1999CamshaftPositionSensor.pdf

[Kaos22B]

step number 1: Get it out of those thieve's hands. What a ripoff!

[glennbaz]

Just heard back from dealership doing repair. They claim crankshaft and camshafts are not aligned. They state that belt is of 3-4 teeth. There is no colapsed tensioner and this was most likely an incorrect repair when the timing belts were done 9k miles ago. Called the original dealership and no one in authority to speak with. Message left. I find it difficult t believe that the car would run fine for 9k miles then come up with an cam timing error code and this be the problem. They said they took pictures to show the problem. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Glenn

[Kaos22B]

Just heard back from dealership doing repair. They claim crankshaft and camshafts are not aligned. They state that belt is of 3-4 teeth. There is no colapsed tensioner and this was most likely an incorrect repair when the timing belts were done 9k miles ago. Called the original dealership and no one in authority to speak with. Message left. I find it difficult t believe that the car would run fine for 9k miles then come up with an cam timing error code and this be the problem. They said they took pictures to show the problem. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Glenn

typically 1 tooth is enough do make the car run like crap, if at all.

3-4 teeth... No way.

If they are talking about the marks on the belt being off from the marks on the cam gears when everything is rotated into place, yah, theyre going to be off, but that's because the chance of you lining those marks up after the initial installation is like 1/100000

That does NOT mean it's off timing (count belt teeth from crank/cam, cam/cam etc to make sure it's right at that point).

Kian

[Jon in CT]

That does NOT mean it's off timing (count belt teeth from crank/cam, cam/cam etc to make sure it's right at that point).

I guess you didn't you read the part where he said:

I’m 2500 miles away from the car ...

I don't know why, if the automatic belt tensioner is working properly now, the problem failed to manifest itself 900 miles ago right after the timing belt was changed.

 

Just for reference, another document from Subaru:

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/StepEWAug07.pdf

[Kaos22B]

;1880829']I guess you didn't you read the part where he said:I don't know why' date=' if the automatic belt tensioner is working properly now, the problem failed to manifest itself 900 miles ago right after the timing belt was changed.[/quote']

:attention:Bite me:lol:

 

I meant that's the best way to tell, not from the marks on the belt.

Besides it was my recommendation to get it out of that shop anyways.

[glennbaz]

Thanks to everyone for thier input. It is clear from Jon's pdf that this is a simple change of a part without tearing into the engine. The dealer should have most certainly tried just changing the sensor verses tearing open the engine as per "mechanics experience". We'll see what happens tomorrow.

Glenn

[Jon in CT]

If you need any more reference materials for the 99 Legacy, try:

http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=3822

[ehsnils]

Just heard back from dealership doing repair. They claim crankshaft and camshafts are not aligned. They state that belt is of 3-4 teeth. There is no colapsed tensioner and this was most likely an incorrect repair when the timing belts were done 9k miles ago. Called the original dealership and no one in authority to speak with. Message left. I find it difficult t believe that the car would run fine for 9k miles then come up with an cam timing error code and this be the problem. They said they took pictures to show the problem. Any thoughts?

Thanks

Glenn

 

If the timing belt has slipped it may also be caused by a bad belt that has a manufacturing problem or that something has slipped in between belt and sprocket. Like a mouse. So if you have a dead crushed mouse there you know...

 

And if the belt has slipped I suggest that you change it. But it still sounds like a possible rip-off.

[glennbaz]

Spoke with the service manager of the original dealership today. He contacted the questionable dealer who failed to contact me as promised. The original dealer was quite helpful and expressed his concerns about the quality of the diagnosis and second repair. He basically left it upto me to fend it out myself (pretty much expected) but did offer his help if I requested it. Car still not finished today and no word on the cost of the "repair". Tomorrow is another day. Hopefully not a too bad of one. Thanks again.

Glenn

[johnywade14]

;1878845']Replacing the camshaft position sensor on a 1999 Legacy engine is a simple process. Of course' date=' the fault might be in the wiring between the engine control module and the sensor.[/quote']

 

i found it hard to replace CPS, esp. i don't have any idea how to replace it. what should be the first thing to do? or can you just tell me the steps how. I don't have time to bring it to a auto repair shop, so i have to fix it by myself. Thanks.

[ryanayaz]

I recently have been getting the same code P0341 on my 99 Legacy 2.2L. I also recently had my timing belt changed around 100k miles and I started getting the code after 102k. Originally I was getting codes for the crankshaft sensor, replaced it and now I get codes from camshaft sensor. I went to replace the camshaft sensor myself, but had difficulty because the valve cover gets in the way of complete removal so I haven't yet replaced the sensor. The legacy does not seem to suffer any performance loss or erratic behavior and upon resetting the code, it comes back at random times. I was able to travel 500 miles before it came on and then the next reset it came up instantly, now the most recent reset hasn't come back for a day. Has been bothering me, hoping I can find a way to maybe start by replacing the sensor without having to take a bunch of crap apart.

[Osei]

;1881528']If you need any more reference materials for the 99 Legacy, try:

http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=3822

Obvious you missed this post.

 

Use it.

 

O.