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About to Buy 08 Spec.B Few Q's


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Posted

Hey All, I'm about to buy my 1st Subaru(08 SpecB) and have a few questions for you Veterans:

 

1. Is there any reason to wait for the 09? I did a search here and all i turned up was the Harman Kardon Stereo, which would be nice, but theres a $7000 rebate on the 08 right now(Canada) which i'm sure will be gone on the 09. Also my search turned up possible new color choices, but i like the Diamond Grey anyhow.

 

2. What is the general concensus here on Extended Warranty? They want 2500 bucks here for 7 yr 140K (88K Miles), seems a little steep to me.

 

3. What about that protection package that they try to sell?.....they want 800 bucks for that. Its like scotchguard on the seats, rust proofing, some kind of sound coating on the undercarrage etc etc etc. Seems like a rip-off to me as well. They only one which i was remotely interested in is the protective film on the hood, and they wanted $450 for that.

 

4. Hows the deal on the car itself look? They are selling to me for $39,800 all in, out the door. I know that might seem steep to you guys in the states but this is a 45000 msrp here in canada. That price includes the 7K rebate, and another 2K off which the dealer is giving me. so its like 45000 - 7000 - 2000 + 1500(Freight) + 300(Doc Fee) + 125(Tire and AC tax) + 5% GST = 39,800........Not bad?

 

Thx in advance!

Posted

I've never bought a vehicle in Canada, so maybe it is standard there, but what is the deal with the freight? We have a "destination charge" here but it is usually something like $600.

 

As for the deal, you can't really do anything about the taxes, the doc fee seems a little high, but $300 isn't all that uncommon. I just usually refuse to pay more than $100 (negotiated at the last minute :eek:).

 

The protection package is 100% markup, so don't pay that. Unless the dealer has modded the one you are looking at, you shouldn't even look at the add-on sticker that dealers put on the car. Just look at the factory msrp. Stuff like "protection package" and "detail package" (usually pinstripes) are bs that the dealer adds so they have more room to work. I have even seen dealers try to charge for the floor mats that come standard on some vehicles just to give them and extra $150 on the deal, so be careful with the add-ons - that is how dealers make money on the suckers of the world. You are there to buy a car, not warranties, aftermarket add-ons, or anything else they try to hock while you are there - STAY FOCUSED!! My Grandfather used to crack me up about companies trying to sell warranties for everything. He would get a real concerned look on his face and tell the salesman, "well, I don't know... if this thing is so unreliable that it needs an extra warranty, then maybe I should look at something else!" He would say it as serious as a heart attack and the salesman would start backtracking immediately and would not say another word about warranties!

 

That said, these cars don't have all that much markup in them to start with, so it the dealer is really giving you $2000 off, that sounds pretty good - just make sure the $2000 is coming off the msrp and they aren't just selling it to you for sticker once they cancel out all their bs markup prices and fees.

Posted

Yeah the 1500$ Freight is the same as your destination charge. The dealer pays this full amount, no markup. Its been like that here for years on all makes of cars.

The part that I laugh at is that you guys pay like 645 or something, but to get it to Alaska, its only an extra $190 lol. Alaska is about 1000 miles north of me lol. Man we get hosed on this stuff here in Canada:rolleyes:

 

And yeah the 300 doc fee pissed me off as well but seems it is standard for all Subaru dealers in my area.

 

And I agree with you on the Warranty and Protection Pack. I am going to flat out refuse unless someone pops in here soon with a good reason to go with one of them.

Posted

1. Will there be the same type of rebate for next year's model around the same time? But if you can't wait for that long, I gues it doesn't really matter. The next thing to consider is the depreciation of the car. Can you really justify $7000 in rebate if the car had already depreciated by $8000 compared to the 2009 model (just an example)?

 

2. Extended warranty is good for the peace of mind when this is your first experience with the brand (you're not really sure which components will likely to break down and how much their repair costs will be). The next thing to consider is the term of the warranty. Does it include wear and tear items, for example, if you hit a boulder in the middle of the freeway at night (don't laugh, it happened to me and 20 other drivers once upon a night in Houston) will it pay for the repairs? Or does it only cover defective items (eg. CV joint broke without indication of CV boot tear which is highly unlikely for reputable car makes). Next is what kind of maintenance proof you need to show during a claim. Next is how many miles you drive per year (5 yr 50000 miles vs. 7 yr 100000 miles which one suit your needs more?).

 

3. Protection package is a total rip off. Just wax your car regularly. It'll be as good as any protection package.

 

4. MSRP and invoice are totally fabricated numbers, but I always go for the invoice of the car since it's the closest thing to real number that is available out there. Here in the US, invoice is how much the dealer STATES they pay for the vehicle. If you can get a vehicle for invoice or 3-4% above invoice, that's a decent deal. If you can tap in to their discount (usually 2-3% of the invoice. It's called a dealer holdback), then you get a great deal. Of course they still make money on volume discounts, shipping discounts, and other stuff, so don't feel bad asking them to tap in to their holdbacks. Rebates should go on top of the negotiated price. Don't let them tell you stuff like "We're already selling you the car for $7000 off the MSRP".

 

Hope that helps.

Posted

I don't know. Honestly the price is still a tad high. I bought my 07 SpecB in March of 2007 and came out at $39,995 (before GST and PST). That was freight, admin fee, tire and a/c tax all in. I realize that price is still above yours ... but I was pissed because 6 months after purchase Subaru announced the $7,000 price reduction.

 

If you factor in $40,000 less 7,000 rebate then there is a fairly significant difference in price. But hey who am I to critize ... I paid more than the price you are referring to. Sometimes you just have to pay for the things you love. :lol:

 

I would say push a little harder on the price.... or have them throw in some of the protection package and/or servicing for a period. It ends up saving you some $$ but the dealer takes minimal hit on it because includes their huge markup.

 

Have you considered importing?? There are some insane deals through Grayson Subaru. There are a number of brokers who will do all of the paperwork to import and ship right to your door.

 

As for the extended warranty ... all up to you. If you are planning on any modifications don't bother. Most performance modifications will void many major party of the warranty.

 

Good luck and happy hunting.

Posted

Don't do the protection package.

If you live in Ontario or a place where they salt the roads, get undercar treatment, but get it from a 3rd party detailing company in your area. They'll do that for about 300 bucks. The rest of the scotchguard crap is nonsense.

 

The extended warranty might be good if you can A) afford it (B) plan to keep your car for at least that long © plan to keep the car 100% stock for the entire life of the vehicle.

 

© is the hardest part about being a member of this forum. You'll be modding in a short while and then what the hell good is an extended warranty if they will void it regardless?

 

Trust me, it's a whole other thread debate on modding vs the dealer honoring warranty... but if they see you with a lowered car, they'll deny suspension issues.

If they find out you have gone stage 1 or stage 2, they'll deny you on any engine or tranmission issues, etc, etc.

Posted
you can purchase the extended warranty at any time before the 36,000 miles. so shop around to different dealers if you want that warranty. also if your going to mod warranty will be worth dik...
Posted

Thanks for all the suggestions folks. Great Stuff. I did some more Haggleing today before signing on the dotted line. Got them to throw in a Spoiler and the sliding armrest and they are giving me the short shifter for 350 installed. I couldn't budge them on Price, but TBH I really suck at it. At least I can come away from this without being totally HAD anyways, at least I think so.

 

 

Fonts: How did you manage to beat them down to 40 grand including Freight, tax etc. Carcost Canada shows the dealer cost at $42,614.00. Thats a loss of $2614 for them. Or does this come down to what logicalfaith says in post #4 about the invoice cost being a totally fabricated number? The Car Cost report was the only thing that i had which seemed to make the dealer give in at all and give me the extra 2K off.

 

In any event I am now the proud owner of an 08 spec B :) Can't wait to pick it up tomorrow.

 

Edit: Oh, and I declined the warranty and protection packs. I actually managed to walk out of the dealer today paying basically exactly what i stated in post #1. Never thought it would happen lol.

Posted

I don't know. Basically bought the car over the phone. I did have a trade that they would have made a bit of $$ on but I'm pretty happy with the number they gave me for it.

 

I told them that I could get an LGT imported from the US at the time for $35,000 which was true. I travelled from out of town to pick up the car and told them I'd be buying 1 of the 2 cars. If they wanted me to buy their Spec they needed to sharpen their pencil.

 

I was happy with the price. Figured a few grand premium for the Spec and a few grand premium for a Canadian car with speedo. cluster and piece of mind with warranty, etc.

 

Congratulations on the car by the way. You won't be disappointed.

Posted

Congrats on the spec B. I just bought one a couple of weeks ago too for about the same price. I guess i should have haggled with them a bit more for the spoiler though :)

 

Not sure either how accurate Carcosts is either. I'd believe that the deal cost is less but since we don't have anything to back that up carcosts is the only numbers that we have to work with.

 

But either way. The car is worth every penny :D

Posted
Congrats on the spec B. I just bought one a couple of weeks ago too for about the same price. I guess i should have haggled with them a bit more for the spoiler though :)

 

Not sure either how accurate Carcosts is either. I'd believe that the deal cost is less but since we don't have anything to back that up carcosts is the only numbers that we have to work with.

 

But either way. The car is worth every penny :D

 

Congratulations to you.

 

Enjoy.

Posted
4. MSRP and invoice are totally fabricated numbers, but I always go for the invoice of the car since it's the closest thing to real number that is available out there. Here in the US, invoice is how much the dealer STATES they pay for the vehicle. If you can get a vehicle for invoice or 3-4% above invoice, that's a decent deal. If you can tap in to their discount (usually 2-3% of the invoice. It's called a dealer holdback), then you get a great deal. Of course they still make money on volume discounts, shipping discounts, and other stuff, so don't feel bad asking them to tap in to their holdbacks. Rebates should go on top of the negotiated price. Don't let them tell you stuff like "We're already selling you the car for $7000 off the MSRP".

 

As someone that sold cars for several years and my family has owned about 10 new car dealerships over the last 40 years, I can tell you that pretty much everything in the statement above is wrong. The MSRP and invoice cost is set by the manufacturer. The dealer does not have any control over those numbers (I wish I DID when I was selling cars, though!).

 

It doesn't matter if you work from the invoice or the msrp. If you want to work fom the invoice, expect them to add some money as profit into the deal. If you work off msrp, expect them to reduce the price. The main thing you have to worry about is that the true msrp is on the big window sticker from Subaru with the gas mileage listed. The small add-on stickers are garbage.

 

I don't know of any dealers that will let you get into their holdback. They may tell you that they are, but they are making up the money somewhere else, like on your trade in. Holdback is not even considered profit to the dealers, it pays for advertising, dealership overhead, floorplan, etc. Additionally, if you beat the dealer down to invoice price, you are totally screwing the salesman. They will make $50-100 on the deal, and chances are, if you beat them down that far, you are a horrible customer anyways and not worth the time - why should a salesman waste several hours of his time working with someone to get $50 when he could work with someone else for a couple of hours and get $500?

 

The trick is to be fair for the dealer AND yourself. Granted, the dealer is going to try to screw you right off the bat and throw out some rediculous number, but after that, they just want your business.

Posted

Discussions about purchase pricing on every car forum I've read seem always to include posts from people claiming to have negotiated astounding deals (10% under invoice, etc., etc.) and asserting that everyone else should do the same. If that were to happen, all dealerships would wind up out of business rather quickly, and I suspect that many of the claims are the usual sort of false bravado and BS that you see so much of on-line.

 

Still, it is possible to save money, and, in decades of new car purchases I've found that the best way is to shop around. My recent 08 Spec.B purchase is a great example.

 

There are two Subaru dealers reasonably close to where I live, and their on-line inventories each listed one Spec.B, with quite similar accessories and nearly identical prices.

 

The sales guy at Dealer #1 launched into a long monologue about how Subaru was importing only a few of these cars this year ("importing" from Indiana, I guess) and how rare they are, so they were not going to be able to go below MSRP; further, they had added a $3000 undercoating treatment that he "generously" was going to take half off.

 

At Dealer #2, things were better and, after test drive (which I really didn't need), I was offered the Edmunds trade-in value plus a bit for my existing car and the Spec.B at invoice. I expect they had decided to make their money on my existing car (a pristine-plus Honda S2000) -- and they wound up selling it in two days at about a 20% markup, I found out later. I'm happy, and I think they are, too.

 

So shop around, even if it means driving a ways. HPH

Posted
Shop around if you can. Around Here where i Live NY Tri-State Area. These cars are kind of hard to find. I had to drive from Long Island to NJ to get my Legacy GT. And the dealer that had it only had one in stock. Go figure.
Posted
As someone that sold cars for several years and my family has owned about 10 new car dealerships over the last 40 years, I can tell you that pretty much everything in the statement above is wrong. The MSRP and invoice cost is set by the manufacturer. The dealer does not have any control over those numbers (I wish I DID when I was selling cars, though!).

 

 

:lol: Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you or your family's business. I meant the MSRP and Invoice are just numbers that the auto manufacturers come up with based on what they think the cars should sell for.

 

I have found several dealers that agreed to sell me cars at invoice or 2% below. I don't think by getting the car at or below invoice is screwing the salesmen. They know better how they're doing at that time plus there's the sales manager that needs to approve the sale. 50 bucks is always better than no bucks at all right? Bottom line, it's basic supply and demand. If the car is selling well, you're right, there's no reason why they should only get $50 by spending four hours with you while they can gain $500 by spending 1 hour with the next person.

 

Dr. Cloud mentioned that dealership will be out of business if everyone is doing the same thing and getting 10% below invoice on their cars.

 

I don't think that will happen with all the profit they are making on the used cars and trade ins. Plus, if the demand for the makes they are selling is really low for a long period of time, then they should reconsider selling other makes and models.

 

Business is business is business, they are here to make money. The spenders (ie. us) can never "win" (getting a car at or below the ACTUAL manufacturing cost (as per the automaker's books) is considered a win in my book). We can only minimize the damage (get it at a good deal, as closest as possible to invoice (3% is my max) or below (2% below invoice is my min).

Posted
Additionally, if you beat the dealer down to invoice price, you are totally screwing the salesman. They will make $50-100 on the deal, and chances are, if you beat them down that far, you are a horrible customer anyways and not worth the time - why should a salesman waste several hours of his time working with someone to get $50 when he could work with someone else for a couple of hours and get $500?

 

This is likewise an inaccurate portrayal of reality, IMO.

 

First off, MSRP is the "List Price" common in other industries, ie. BS.

 

Eg. when I go into Guitar Center I don't even bother looking at the "List Prices" since the real prices are ALWAYS 20-30% off that [new cars may have tighter margins but the logic is the same].

 

Second, the "Invoice Price" is close, but not exactly what the dealer paid for the car, but it is the only negotiating starting point a buyer needs to think about.

 

They will make $50-100 on the deal, and chances are, if you beat them down that far, you are a horrible customer anyways and not worth the time - why should a salesman waste several hours of his time working with someone to get $50 when he could work with someone else for a couple of hours and get $500?

 

Indeed, but we are talking about product that has been on the dealer lot for WEEKs if not MONTHs.

 

Eg, here's a Spec.B in my area, VIN # 4S3BL696283208935

 

since you're Mr Industry Insider you can figure out how long that car has been around. I'd be doing the dealer A FAVOR for buying it at Invoice less $2000, especially since I can just order a factory-fresh Spec.B for 2% under invoice thanks to the VIP program.

Posted
I meant the MSRP and Invoice are just numbers...

 

This is actually a very good point. Perhaps, years ago before it was possible for consumers to do so much research, "Invoice" might have really been a number directly related to dealer cost. Now, it's just another price point used in negotiations. Pricing strategies and thresholds are all highly proprietary data, ultimately based on what it really costs to manufacture (and finance and advertise, etc.,etc.) the cars and what margins the companies think they can get away with. It comes down to how much hassle people want to go through vs. how much they're willing to plunk down for a car they just gotta have. I'm sticking by my "shop around" advice, though. :p HPH

Posted
This is actually a very good point. Perhaps, years ago before it was possible for consumers to do so much research, "Invoice" might have really been a number directly related to dealer cost. Now, it's just another price point used in negotiations. Pricing strategies and thresholds are all highly proprietary data, ultimately based on what it really costs to manufacture (and finance and advertise, etc.,etc.) the cars and what margins the companies think they can get away with. It comes down to how much hassle people want to go through vs. how much they're willing to plunk down for a car they just gotta have. I'm sticking by my "shop around" advice, though. :p HPH

 

Shopping around pays off too especially if you pit one dealer against another. I bet some people in the car sales business are ready to ban me and some of us from their dealership. But I stick to the basic supply and demand theory. They won't be in this business if it doesn't make them good money.

Posted

Don't take me wrong - I'm not offended! Far from it. The info provided was just incorrect.

 

I'm not even in that business anymore. It is a horrible business to be in, largely because about 50% of the people that walk into the dealership think they are special and deserve a sub-invoice price and do not want the dealership or salesman to make any profit. In my experience, even if you DO give them what they want it isn't enough and they will be difficult customers the WHOLE time they own the car. That is just a poor way to think about it.

 

Now, I realize that there are special circumstances where you can get a sub-invoice deal like if the car is 200 days old or you have an employee plan of some sort, etc. But to come on here and tell the guy that he is paying too much because you managed to get a special deal makes it sound like he should be able to just waltz into any dealership, look at any model, and beat the sales guy down until there is no profit and that just isn't practical.

 

As for Tachikaze - I agree and I think we are saying the same thing. It is great info from a negotiation standpoint to know the markup. I'm not saying that you should pay msrp - that isn't a fair deal for you. But I also don't think you deserve to buy it at invoice. Somewhere in between is where you want to be and I personally think that about 1.5-2% over invoice is a fair price for both parties.

 

That is all fine and dandy for a cash deal, but if you are trading a vehicle in, the msrp and invoice prices do not mean squat - it is the trade difference. For example, if I do to the Subaru dealership and there are 2 identical Legacys side by side except one has pinstripes. The one without pinstripes is $34,450 and the one with pinstripes has an add-on tag that brings up the price to $65,250 (they are VERY special pinstripes!). The dealer offers me $24,450 trade in on the one without pinstripes for a sales price of $10k, but he allows me $56,250 for the one WITH pinstripes for a sale of $9k. Obviously this whole thing is exaggerated, but which is the better buy? The higher priced one, of course.

 

So my point is, if you are trading something in, why even try to negotiate the sticker? Why not just focus on the trade difference and trade-in value of your car? Most of these guys that say they get a car at 2% below invoice still got the same deal as the guy that bought the car at 2% over, because they got screwed on their trade-in - they just aren't sharp enough to understand what just took place and the dealer is in the back room giggling because he knows what happened and the customer thinks he "won".

 

That said, if they got 2% below invoice on a cash deal and were not part of some special program, they either 1) got a great deal that is out of the norm, or 2) the invoice price that was shown was not the true invoice, which is why you ALWAYS check the edmonds invoice before you buy - they are within a $100 or so of the true invoice. There are some dealers out there that have 2 invoice books and usually, if they are quick to show it to you, you should be suspicious.

Posted

The sale/trade difference is indeed the relevant number in all this (if you're trading a car in).

 

One published bit of advice is to attempt to separate the two, to get your car appraised while you're still looking over the dealer's inventory. Then, supposedly, you can negotiate the two numbers separately and get your best deal on both.

 

My experience has been that this just doesn't work -- dealerships, after all, are pros at all this, and they know the tricks of the trade. What does work, though, is to take your trade-in to a local CarMax (or similar place), tell them you need some cash and want to sell it to them, and get an appraisal. They do it in writing, even. Then you can use that as a baseline for the dealership's appraisal -- in fact, some dealers who don't like to handle used cars from other brands will recommend CarMax as your first stop. Dealer #1, the bad one, did this; the implied additional hassle factor for me was something else that put me off a bit. Dealer #2 actually hit CarMax's offer on the nose with our previous trade-in (an 04 Forester for an 07 Outback XT). And I'm thinking that what the salesman didn't make in commission on my Spec.B he made up for on my used S2000 he brought in -- which they turned around in a couple of days at a considerable markup.

 

So the sales folks at Dealer #2 get my vote. (The service dept, though, well, don't get me started. They told me that Mobil 1 would violate the Subaru warranty, what seems to be a flat-out lie.) HPH

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