Datalog analysis/thoughts

[loak]

Any thoughts from the tuning gurus on the attached stage 2 logs?

 

Atmospheric Pressure (psi): 14.07

Intake Air Temperature (F): 61

 

*rename to csv*

3rdgear.csv.pdf

[DrewLGT]

i'm no expert by any means, but it looks pretty good to me. are you running an OTS map?

[boostsr20]

Its on the extremely safe side. At 6000 RPM's I run about 6-7 more degrees of timing and don't have any problems. Is this a 91 octane map by chance? Nothing to worry about, looks like it runs well.

[Infamous1]

Its on the extremely safe side. At 6000 RPM's I run about 6-7 more degrees of timing and don't have any problems. Is this a 91 octane map by chance? Nothing to worry about, looks like it runs well.

Your running 31degrees of timing at 6000rpms?

What is your FBKC range?

 

This log looks fine and appears to be a basic stage 1 tune.

 

Edit: Just notice the BIG stg 2 psi is probally down due the the Atmospheric Pressure. However it ramps up kind of slow, but it does appear to be fine (as in safe).

[loak]

It's a Cobb OTS map.

 

I was comparing my logs with some stage 1 logs and noticed that mine seem to be far more conservative when adding timing (and removing KC).

 

Assuming this wasn't me being a moron and accidentally loading a stage 1 map, are Cobb maps usually this safe/conservative?

 

Could this even be a stage 1 map?

It seems like WGDC was purposely increased to achieve higher MRP.

Though, don't stage 2 maps typically increase injector duty cycle?

 

 

*rename to .csv*

the first 3 columns under each heading are "stage 2", the second 3 are stage 1

s1s2-3rd.csv.pdf

[Infamous1]

It's a Cobb OTS map.

 

I was comparing my logs with some stage 1 logs and noticed that mine seem to be far more conservative when adding timing (and removing KC).

 

Assuming this wasn't me being a moron and accidentally loading a stage 1 map, are Cobb maps usually this safe/conservative?

 

Could this even be a stage 1 map?

It seems like WGDC was purposely increased to achieve higher MRP.

Though, don't stage 2 maps typically increase injector duty cycle?

 

 

*rename to .csv*

the first 3 columns under each heading are "stage 2", the second 3 are stage 1

Wow, that was difficult to read

It is a stage 2 map just VERY conservative. The timing seems slighty backed down vs the stg 1, probaly from the increased MRP. Stg does typically increase IDC but in this case it doesn't appear to be anymore aggressive, IDC is calculated.

[boostsr20]

Your running 31degrees of timing at 6000rpms?

What is your FBKC range?

 

This log looks fine and appears to be a basic stage 1 tune.

 

Edit: Just notice the BIG stg 2 psi is probally down due the the Atmospheric Pressure. However it ramps up kind of slow, but it does appear to be fine (as in safe).

 

No, I run 26-27, he's only running 20-21. I don't have any knock problems on winter gas at that level either, summer gas just hit the pumps here and the difference was night and day so I'm sure I could run more if I wanted to push it.

[Infamous1]

No, I run 26-27, he's only running 20-21. I don't have any knock problems on winter gas at that level either, summer gas just hit the pumps here and the difference was night and day so I'm sure I could run more if I wanted to push it.

Have you changed your FBKC range?

[loak]

Care to enlighten a tuning noob on the meaning/difference between feedback and fine learning kc

[Infamous1]

Care to enlighten a tuning noob on the meaning/difference between feedback and fine learning kc

Feedback is your normal knock event, fine learning takes place when there is constant feedback knock event in that load rpm range.

[boostsr20]

Have you changed your FBKC range?

I've changed the RPM range to match the increased rev limiter. Thats about it though. What specific range are you talking about?

[Infamous1]

I've changed the RPM range to match the increased rev limiter. Thats about it though. What specific range are you talking about?

Feedback correction range, factory is disabled above 6200. If you have changed this to match your redline your fine. I am just suprised at how much more timing you can run. On this craptastic CA91 I can only get about 21-22 degrees at 6K rpms

[loak]

Its on the extremely safe side. At 6000 RPM's I run about 6-7 more degrees of timing and don't have any problems. Is this a 91 octane map by chance? Nothing to worry about, looks like it runs well.

 

I totally missed your question there...yes, I'm running a 91 octane map.

Given that Cobb's documents claim a 5hp difference between the 91 and 93 maps, how drastic a change can there be between them?

 

Edit:

speeeeling

[Infamous1]

I totally missed your question there...yes, I'm running a 91 octane map.

Given that Cobb's doc claim a 5hp difference between the 91 and 93 maps, how drastic a change can there be between them?

It is all most likely in the timing, even just 2 degrees is a LARGE difference.

[loak]

Feedback is your normal knock event, fine learning takes place when there is constant feedback knock event in that load rpm range.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

As a follow up question, is fine learning tracked over a specific time period? Or is it tracked forever (until the ECU is reset)?

[Infamous1]

Thanks for the clarification.

As a follow up question, is fine learning tracked over a specific time period? Or is it tracked forever (until the ECU is reset)?

Until the ECU is reset, you set up the rpm range in the map. It also will remove itself if the knock occurances go away.

[loak]

It is all most likely in the timing, even just 2 degrees is a LARGE difference.

 

Short of getting a tactrix cable or a copy of streettuner, I don't suppose there's any way to take a look at the timing tables in the two maps, is there?

[Infamous1]

Short of getting a tactrix cable or a copy of streettuner, I don't suppose there's any way to take a look at the timing tables in the two maps, is there?

Not at all, only what your logs put out. Part of the reason I had to ditch my APv2.

[boostsr20]

I totally missed your question there...yes, I'm running a 91 octane map.

Given that Cobb's documents claim a 5hp difference between the 91 and 93 maps, how drastic a change can there be between them?

 

Edit:

speeeeling

If your car could run another 5 degrees of timing while maintaining its knock free form you'd probably see another 10-15hp. Noticeable, but not a huge amount especially if you want a nice safety margin.

[loak]

I'd love to learn how to "read" maps.

Any suggestions on where to find an open source stock and stage 1 map for the same car? Basic stage 2 and tweaked stage 2 map for the same car?

I figure direct comparison between two maps is a decent method for seeing which values are changed.

[Infamous1]

Checkout http://xpttuning.com/osecuroms/ for modified/stock roms and download Enginuity from www.romraider.com to view the roms.

[merchgod]

Feedback is your normal knock event, fine learning takes place when there is constant feedback knock event in that load rpm range.

That is a common misconception. FBKC does not impact FLKC whatsoever. It is best to think of the three elements of knock control (FBKC, changes to FLKC, and changes to the IAM) as three distinct methods in which only one is active at any given time. There are a number of conditions which determine which is active (see the sticky at the romraider forums). In order to determine if the ECU has perceived a knock event, you need to log the following (using RomRaider logger with updated logger defs):

 

1. Feedback Knock Correction - Each decrement in FBKC is a knock event (not each negative correction per logger line as it holds the negative correction and ramps back to zero if there is no knock).

 

For example, if FBKC is active (it will not precisely look like this and you may not catch every step when logging, but you get the idea):

0 no knock

0 no knock

-2.0 knock event

-2.0 no knock - holding value

-1.0 no knock - ramping back to zero

-3.0 knock event

-3.0 no knock - holding value

-2.0 no knock - ramping back to zero

-2.0 no knock - holding value

-1.0 no knock - ramping back to zero

-1.0 no knock - holding value

0

 

2. Fine Learning Knock Correction - This is learned correction determined and applied across specific load/rpm ranges. Problem is, even though it may be negative, it could be due to past knock, not a current event. To determine if FLKC is changing, you need to log "Fine Learning Table Offset". If the offset value remains the same while FLKC decreases, then you had a knock event

 

3. IAM - each time the IAM drops, it was due to a knock event.

[Infamous1]

If you know your DA table isn't it perfectly fine to just log KC?

[merchgod]

If you know your DA table isn't it perfectly fine to just log KC?

KC = (DA map value * IAM) + FBKC + FLKC

 

So, yes, you could use KC to determine if there was any correction due to knock (assuming you take a peek at IAM and it is not variable during the run). But, it would not give as much information as logging FBKC and FLKC.

 

Example:

KC = (DA * IAM) + FBKC + FLKC

KC = (8 * 1.0) + (-2) + (0) = 6

KC = (8 * 1.0) + (0) + (-2) = 6

KC = (8 * 1.0) + (-1) + (-1) = 6

KC = (8 * 0.5) + (0) + (2) = 6

 

As you can see, all of the above would result in the same KC value, even though each might require a different strategy to correct.

[Infamous1]

KC = (DA map value * IAM) + FBKC + FLKC

 

So, yes, you could use KC to determine if there was any correction due to knock (assuming you take a peek at IAM and it is not variable during the run). But, it would not give as much information as logging FBKC and FLKC.

 

Example:

KC = (DA * IAM) + FBKC + FLKC

KC = (8 * 1.0) + (-2) + (0) = 6

KC = (8 * 1.0) + (0) + (-2) = 6

KC = (8 * 1.0) + (-1) + (-1) = 6

KC = (8 * 0.5) + (0) + (2) = 6

 

As you can see, all of the above would result in the same KC value, even though each might require a different strategy to correct.

Gotcha