Diesel + Hybrid + 7-spd DSG + Golf = 69 mpg

[chenc544]

Yes, it's a VW but the technology is cool. Forget the diesel vs hybrid debate, this is what we need. They been doing it in trains and submarines for about 100 years, took them long enough to put it in a car.

 

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/03/golftdihybrid_sneak-%283%29.jpg

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

[CarlJNgmail.com]

I'd love to have something like this to take to work. I could near make 3 round trips on 1 gallon of diesel. On top of that, this will probably cost just as much as a smart car, is far far more useful, and gets way better gas mileage.

[praedet]

Now they just need to make it a small diesel turboshaft engine that constantly charges a bank of batteries...

 

80% efficiency FTW

[Bulldawg GT]

Now they just need to make it a small diesel turboshaft engine that constantly charges a bank of batteries...

 

80% efficiency FTW

 

My thoughts exactly. This technology already exist and is in industrial use. Just downsize it and put it in a car. I get the feeling that automakers want to do just enough to appear that they are making cars that are more "green."

[ABPillinois]

New Euro Honda Civic Diesel - Ready for DTEC?

 

The diesel powerplant in the new Euro Civic could tell of things to come for the U.S. market.

By John Stewart

 

 

 

http://images.hondatuningmagazine.com/news/0506_ht_04s+euro_honda_civic+i_cdti_diesel_engine.jpg

Determined to build a credible performance image for the next Civic, Honda is tearing up autos shows-first Chicago and now Geneva-with sporty Civic concepts. The automaker will offer the next-gen Civic with diesel or gas engines, with the new 2.2-liter i-CTDi diesel delivering its peak 138 hp at 4000 rpm and its 250 lb-ft at just 2000.

On the Papenburg high-speed test oval in Germany, the 2.2 i-CTDi engine set no fewer than 19 Production Car Class speed records in two Accords, including an average speed of 130.3 mph over a 24-hour period. Then, on the way home, the same two cars logged an astounding 92 mpg over a 675-mile route of mixed highway and city driving

 

 

 

No hybrid or dsg needed.

[Penguin]

Sorry I'm not buying the 92 mpg claim.

[chenc544]

No hybrid or dsg needed.

 

Sorry, but that's not how the realworld application turned out.

51 mpg UK = 42.5 mpg US for the Accord iDTEC. I don't see them getting twice that number in a Civic either.

 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/228799/

[ABPillinois]

92 is not the rated EPA mpg our cars are rated 25 hwy and some people have got around 30. I'm not saying 92 sounds right but I bet it will do better than or equal to 69 without the hybrid complications.

 

Edit- EPA numbers for euro spec are 52 hwy tested here with Audi Q7

 

http://jalopnik.com/356497/hypermiling-the-2007-honda-civic-22-i+ctdi-and-2007-audi-q7-42-tdi

[chenc544]

52 mpg highway for the Civic and 42 mpg for the Accord sounds about right. 69 mpg is ~33% improvement over the Civic's 52 mpg, there is definitely significant gains to be had by paring a diesel with a hybrid drive train.

[Bulldawg GT]

It just proves that the technology is available, but there are too many lobbyist in Washington to allow these types of vehicles into the US market.

[chenc544]

I just realized that's the Civic i-CTDi, the old 2.2 diesel not the new i-DTEC. The new i-DTEC Civic should do a little better when it comes out.

[tytek]

Yes, it's a VW but the technology is cool. Forget the diesel vs hybrid debate, this is what we need. They been doing it in trains and submarines for about 100 years, took them long enough to put it in a car.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/01/geneva-08-preview-69-mpg-vw-golf-tdi-hybrid-leaks-out/

 

The reason why we did not see such technology previously is because it was way too expensive. Regardless of how good the fuel economy is with it, not too many people would have paid the required premium to purchase the car. As things become more common and cheaper, they will start making it into production...

[chenc544]

It just proves that the technology is available, but there are too many lobbyist in Washington to allow these types of vehicles into the US market.

 

Actually blame California's CARB. The reason most of these diesels are not coming over is because they can't meet the CARB standard which is used by Cali and 7 other states IIRC. So ironically the people most to blame are the tree huggers...

[chenc544]

The reason why we did not see such technology previously is because it was way too expensive. Regardless of how good the fuel economy is with it, not too many people would have paid the required premium to purchase the car. As things become more common and cheaper, they will start making it into production...

 

I guess my point is why have they been pairing the hybrid drivetrain with petro engines, when pairing it with a diesel engine would result in better fuel economy. Diesel engine is certainly not a new technology. I guess it's probably the same problem with the diesel emission standard for the US.

[SLegacy99]

Its like chocolate and vanilla coming together.

 

From what Ive read on the other boards, its 69 MPG imperial, which would work out to 52 some odd MPG in our terms.

 

Also, there was an article in Car and Driver about how the new 2.2L diesel Civic was only averaging 34 mpg.

[tytek]

I guess my point is why have they been pairing the hybrid drivetrain with petro engines, when pairing it with a diesel engine would result in better fuel economy. Diesel engine is certainly not a new technology. I guess it's probably the same problem with the diesel emission standard for the US.

 

Diesel engines are inherently more expensive, and when a hybrid drivetrain is added, it makes the price of that particular car a lot higher. Diesels generally cost around 10-15% more than gas engines (worldwide average I made up), and hybrids are yet another 15% ... therefore, a total increase of almost 30% over regular petrol engine is very difficult for a consumer to justify, even with the resulting decrease in fuel consumption of 50% (for the sake of argument).

 

PSA Group (Peugeot/Citroen) was the first to showcase a hybrid diesel car, Peugeot 307, a few years ago. But the expected premium of 5k Euro did not make financial sense... but current economies of scale and manufacturing improvements have led to lower component prices, making such systems finally viable.

[chenc544]

From what Ive read on the other boards, its 69 MPG imperial, which would work out to 52 some odd MPG in our terms.

 

The original Dutch(?) article says 3.4 l/100 km which does work out to ~69.2 mpg. I don't think the 69 mpg is in imperial gallons.

[fzanetti]

Sorry I'm not buying the 92 mpg claim.

 

You guys missed the point...

 

It does really MAKE 92 MPG!!!!

 

50 HIGHWAY

40 CITY

 

50 + 42 = 92!!!!

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

 

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[SLegacy99]

In that case Im good for 48 mpg!

 

 

Diesel is $3.99 a gal. here. The highest Ive ever seen it.

 

 

I see. You're right 3.4L/100 km is 69 mpg US.

[chenc544]

Diesel is $3.99 a gal. here. The highest Ive ever seen it.

 

It would be interesting to see how smart the US consumers are. Diesel are more expensive than premium just about everywhere right now. Even though diesel cars will get better mileage the consumer might look at the diesel price and just say I'm not buying a car that uses more expensive gas without doing the math. Let's just use the Accord as an example, the 4-banger petro Accord is rated at 31 mpg hwy and assume the 2.2L diesel Accord is 42 mpg hwy. That's 35% improvement in fuel economy, so break even point is if diesel is 35% more expensive than regular gas. And there is also the premium of buying a diesel Accord and how long it will take for the savings to pay it off. It will be interesting to see how all these factors shake out when more diesel cars start showing up in the US.

[CTlegacy06]

Well lets do a cost comparison based on a fill up. Yesterday I checked and regular gas was $3.20/gal and diesel was $3.70/gal (16% more than regular). Say you have two cars both with 12gallon fuel tank. The regular gas car gets say 35mpg average (theoretical econo box) and this diesel/hybrid gets 55mpg (58% improvement than the regular).

 

So after the tanks are dry:

The regular gas gets 12x35 = 420mi Cost for the trip: $38.40

The diesel/hybrid gets 12x55 = 660mi Cost for the trip: $44.40

 

In the regular gas you get 10.94mi per dollar

In the diesel/hybrid you get 14.86mi per dollar (+35% in distance/cost ratio)

 

But also consider that the more people use diesel the more the its cost will drive up even more! The gap of cost efficiency will be minimized once more fuel efficient gas models come out that are also cheaper compounded with an increased drain on diesel supply to drive that price up.

 

In my opinion its better to get the 15mpg driver (say suv/truck) into a 25mpg vehicle rather than a 35mpg driver into this 55mpg. Its simply an outlier that won't influence the overall market.

[SLegacy99]

I ran the numbers awhile back on owning a regular 2.5L Jetta vs. a TDI and found that it would take at least 10 years to make up the $7000 cost difference, with the diesel fuel costing 40 cents more than regular at the time. Its a gamble alright.

[CTlegacy06]

I ran the numbers awhile back on owning a regular 2.5L Jetta vs. a TDI and found that it would take at least 10 years to make up the $7000 cost difference, with the diesel fuel costing 40 cents more than regular at the time. Its a gamble alright.

Exactly, all these Hybrids, Diesel/Hybrids are not the god send. But the benefit of Diesels are that they are known to last much longer than a gasoline engine.

[chenc544]

But also consider that the more people use diesel the more the its cost will drive up even more! The gap of cost efficiency will be minimized once more fuel efficient gas models come out that are also cheaper compounded with an increased drain on diesel supply to drive that price up.

 

I'm not overly worried about that scenario. More people using diesel should also mean less people using petro. Both diesel and petro comes from crude oil so that part of supply equation shouldn't change. I expect the part that will change is how much of each the oil company will refine. In the long term, I would expect the oil company to refine more diesel and less petro to meet the demand.

Since diesels can go farther per gallon, as more consumer go to diesel this should actually reduce total demand on crude oil, in theory...

[chenc544]

I ran the numbers awhile back on owning a regular 2.5L Jetta vs. a TDI and found that it would take at least 10 years to make up the $7000 cost difference, with the diesel fuel costing 40 cents more than regular at the time. Its a gamble alright.

 

A TDI Jetta is $7000 more expensive than the 2.5L? Wow. Is this mostly because the TDI is loaded with options while the 2.5 is pretty bare?