metroplex Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 I have been a Ford owner as far as I can remember, and I currently drive a 4000+ lb 4-door RWD/V8 2000 Crown Victoria in the snow (clutch limited slip diff w/ snow tires) with decent results. The biggest problem comes with thick slush (5" or deeper) which causes the car to "hydroplane" and takes quite some time to get moving from a stop. Although it is do-able without traffic, the last few storms we had required me to drive at 50+ mph on the highway in 5"+ of sleet, ice, snow, and slush. I had been keeping an eye on Subarus for almost a decade and I think it is time I finally bought one. I'm leaning towards a performance Subaru because I wouldn't be happy driving anything slower than 15.0 second (1/4 ET) which is what my Vic currently runs. The new 2008-up WRX / STI styling is very appealing to me. I only recently learned that the Legacy 2.5 GT Spec B offers slightly more power than the WRX at a few thousand less than the STI. Which of these models offers the most bang/performance for the buck? Are there any compelling reasons to go for one specific model over another? Can I safely drive in winter conditions with performance all-season tires, or should I get snow tires? What kind of fuel economy can I expect? My 00 Vic gets 13 mpg in the city and 20 mpg on the highway. The 07 GT gets 24 mpg combined (about 25+ on the highway) and runs on 87 octane gas. Will I be able to use the Subaru VIP discount on a Legacy GT 2.5 Spec B or WRX? I would like factory projector Xenon HID headlamps with factory headlamps, along with a solid symmetrical AWD system (no Haldex / FWD-bias BS).
sexylegacy Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 The Spec-B is the way to go. 243HP stock and easily made to 300+ HP for a grand. R-180 rear diff vs. the standard 2.5 GT R-160. 6-spd, alcantara suede, 18" wheels stock and a bunch of other stuff including suspension. BUT, DO NOT run 87 crap gas in a GT/STi/WRX. 91+ octane ONLY. These engines are designed to run on super and that's it. It's only like 3 or 4 bucks a tank more and if you can afford a 30+ thousand dollar car you can afford to run super. The Legacy is the way to go. Good luck brother.
mccorry Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 IMHO... the '07 GT or Spec B require premium fuel.... as does any turbocharged car. You can expect anywhere from 19 - 27 MPH with combined driving. I drive about 70% highway and 30% city and average around 23 MPG. The Subaru VIP discount can be used on any model....IIRC. The STi is great for a track car / pure sports car. The WRX is a good compact sporty car that will do well all year round. The Legacy GT / Spec B is a larger car with nicer features.. and slightly more power. I, personally thought that it is the best choice for an all year, daily driver, from a Bang for the Buck perspective.
OutofSight84 Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 I dont know about VIP discounts, but you can get used 08s for below 30k with under 10,000 miles. Xenons unfortunately aren't available on US specification Legacys but there are aftermarket kits available for them
spacejunkiehsv Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 I can't answer your snow driving questions, but do you plan on keeping your Mustang GT? If you plan on keeping the Mustang GT as your fast car and making your Subie your beater car, I'd rule out the STI unless you want two cars that compete for your driving time! If you need to haul anything with your Subie, you need to check and see which years for which models had folding rear seats. I know my 03 WRX and 05 Legacy GT did/do not have folding rear seats, just center pass throughs. Personally, I like the toned down appearance of the Legacy better. The Legacy GT can be had in wagon and sedan versions. The new WRX comes in a hatchback or sedan body style too. The older WRX comes in wagon and sedan body styles. There is a website www.cars101.com that has A TON of info on Subaru cars. You may want to check out that site. Go drive all of your choices. It should help you pick. All of the Subarus you mentioned would be faster than your Crown Vic, unless something was wrong with them. Edit: My 03 WRX 5speed manual got 23mpg combined mileage. My Legacy GT 5 speed (sportshift) automatic gets 21-23mpg combined during daily driving, 23mpg when I keep myself under control. It gets over 24mpg when cruising at 75mph. Regular 87 octane fuel is not an option, unless you get some special slow-my-car-down tune.
metroplex Posted February 18, 2008 Author Posted February 18, 2008 I plan to keep my Mustang and wouldn't mind driving a faster/better handling car in the winter. I looked at the Impreza 2.5i and it just seemed too slow on paper. I noticed that while the Legacy 2.5 GT Ltd and Spec-B have more power, the vehicles are heavier. The 2.5 GT Ltd has the same weight to hp ratio as the WRX. The Spec-B appears to be slower than the WRX/2.5 GT Ltd on paper, is there any truth to this? The Spec-B has a curb weight of 3530 lb while the WRX is at 3142 lb. The reason I ask about the VIP discount is that I heard the STI is exempt from the discount. I am not sure if the Legacy 2.5 GT Spec-B is just as exclusive. If I were to look at a winter "beater" Subaru, should I look at the Legacy or the Impreza, or perhaps another Subaru? I would like the VDC/DSC, WRX/STI-spec symmetrical AWD, and a durable drivetrain, suspension, and powertrain.
fonts Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 I love my Spec. It is a great driving, subtle car with lots of modification options. I live in Northern Ontario and do lots of city and highway driving. I have nothing but wonderful things to say about the car's all round drivability in all weather conditions. Correct that you will be unable to modify it to the same great potential as the STi ... but I also find it a bit more adult. Good luck in your search.
rao Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 I plan to keep my Mustang and wouldn't mind driving a faster/better handling car in the winter. I looked at the Impreza 2.5i and it just seemed too slow on paper. I noticed that while the Legacy 2.5 GT Ltd and Spec-B have more power, the vehicles are heavier. The 2.5 GT Ltd has the same weight to hp ratio as the WRX. The Spec-B appears to be slower than the WRX/2.5 GT Ltd on paper, is there any truth to this? The Spec-B has a curb weight of 3530 lb while the WRX is at 3142 lb. The reason I ask about the VIP discount is that I heard the STI is exempt from the discount. I am not sure if the Legacy 2.5 GT Spec-B is just as exclusive. If I were to look at a winter "beater" Subaru, should I look at the Legacy or the Impreza, or perhaps another Subaru? I would like the VDC/DSC, WRX/STI-spec symmetrical AWD, and a durable drivetrain, suspension, and powertrain. Given Subaru's sales nothing is "exempt" from VIP and you can get that deal all by yourself on just about any model. If I were you I would choose the regular Legacy GT and pocket the difference - there is no material mechanical difference unless you really like 6 speed transmissions and built in navigation systems. I doubt that your Crown Vic is manual (that would be pretty rare) and the Spec B is n ot available with an auto. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT
2intense Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 you can modify a crown vic for manual its not hard so dont doubt quite yet
05GT Guru Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 Lol dotn mod the crown vic, its a waste of time unless you gonna make 600hp. Also get rid of the mustang and dont mod that is too is a waste of time
spacejunkiehsv Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 Lol dotn mod the crown vic, its a waste of time unless you gonna make 600hp. Also get rid of the mustang and dont mod that is too is a waste of time There is nothing wrong with keeping the Mustang GT. They look pretty good, sound good, and can be very fast. They are a muscle car. Now, I hear the suspension isn't all that. However, we shouldn't bash his car choices. The sound of a V8 is worth something by itself. He is just here looking for information on Subies.
Neurodancer Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 I plan to keep my Mustang and wouldn't mind driving a faster/better handling car in the winter. I looked at the Impreza 2.5i and it just seemed too slow on paper. I noticed that while the Legacy 2.5 GT Ltd and Spec-B have more power, the vehicles are heavier. The 2.5 GT Ltd has the same weight to hp ratio as the WRX. The Spec-B appears to be slower than the WRX/2.5 GT Ltd on paper, is there any truth to this? The Spec-B has a curb weight of 3530 lb while the WRX is at 3142 lb. The reason I ask about the VIP discount is that I heard the STI is exempt from the discount. I am not sure if the Legacy 2.5 GT Spec-B is just as exclusive. If I were to look at a winter "beater" Subaru, should I look at the Legacy or the Impreza, or perhaps another Subaru? I would like the VDC/DSC, WRX/STI-spec symmetrical AWD, and a durable drivetrain, suspension, and powertrain. +1 on the cars101.com reference -- a great tool on everything that is stock on a Subaru. WRX/LGT specB/STi are completely different animals - I'd highly recommend test driving each to make your decision. STi & SpecB are only available in MT, if that makes a difference. Each of these cars are 91 Octane cars. If you are looking for a winter "beater" I'd recommend the Rex. If you want a highway cruiser that can still be fun in the twisties I'd look at the LGT. The STi is purely a performance beast and would make your Mustang redundant. The STi and Spec will be shod in summer rubber, so you will need to add winter tires to your initial acquisition calcs if you are looking for a winter car. Lastly, welcome to the board, but this should be in the "Pre-Purchase Questions" forum.... Good luck in your search!
Living Legacy Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 There is nothing wrong with keeping the Mustang GT. They look pretty good, sound good, and can be very fast. They are a muscle car. Now, I hear the suspension isn't all that. However, we shouldn't bash his car choices. The sound of a V8 is worth something by itself. He is just here looking for information on Subies. If you are concerned about hauling gear, get a station wagon (IMO...YUCK). If you just want a fun can to drive in winter, get the Legacy GT Limited with fold down seats in the back (available '07 and newer?). If you are going to use the car as an autocrosser or something to a racing extent, go with the Spec-B as the suspension and tranny differences are sweet (or so I hear)... IMO, if you are serious on a legacy-get the GT and take the extra $6K and put a supercharger on the Mustang. Nothing better than your summer bad ass car and winter/daily driver Legacy 2.5GT! **Hulk Hogan voice** " Good luck brother!
ANDYJ Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 Be careful if you do end up buying a turbo Subaru. Having 2 sporty cars (1 RWD and 1 AWD) can be a little tricky. The driving characteristics are obviously very different. You can give the AWD car more gas in a turn to turn in tighter but don't try that with your RWD mustang. It sounds obvious but when I'm in the middle of a quick turn sometimes I forget which car I'm in. I also agree with most posts above........the standard Legacy GT with snow tires and 91+ octane gas would be a great choice.
05GT Guru Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 There is nothing wrong with keeping the Mustang GT. They look pretty good, sound good, and can be very fast. They are a muscle car. Now, I hear the suspension isn't all that. However, we shouldn't bash his car choices. The sound of a V8 is worth something by itself. He is just here looking for information on Subies. You right i shouldnt bash his car choices, but a ford a ford v8 isnt worth modding in my mind.
SSpeed Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 Welcome! You already have a Mustang GT, I'd keep that, get rid of the Vic, and get an LGT. Some road tests of the time claimed 14.3 timeslips at sealevel, even if you couldn't get that it's still faster than the Vic. A WRX or STI would compete with your time on the Mustang GT as others have said, the Legacy is a more grown up car with good performance. The downside is any turbo car will need 91 octane. For gas mileage, realistically, my 2005 GT Ltd gets about 21mpg around town, but I'm mean to it... If I get out on the highway for a trip I get around 27 or 28 mpg at around 80mph, as long as it's not windy (if it's windy all bets are off). If you are getting the mileage numbers you stated on the Crown Vic and the Mustang, you've got to be driving them like a granny so I'd expect you could get around 25mpg around town from an LGT.
Richard B. Posted February 18, 2008 Posted February 18, 2008 You right i shouldnt bash his car choices, but a ford a ford v8 isnt worth modding in my mind. technically...after stage 1 and 2 etc...you will be droppiong a bigger turbo which is not exactly cheap. with the mustang you have no choice but to skip the stages and get the kit. i wouldn't exactly say a waste of time....i would say not as easy for inital "small" gains. not trying to arugue car purchases etc, just trying to put the price points for modding in perspective. half the people upgrade the gt's suspension anyways...could do the mustang...
metroplex Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 Thanks for the cars101 link. It looks like the Legacy 2.5 GT Limited is a much better buy than the WRX. However, it doesn't come with VDC or Traction Control with the 5-speed manual. I read that stability control will become a mandated safety item for MY 2010. If that is true, I might wait for the '10 Legacy 2.5 GT Limited when they are forced to add VDC. How fast do the stock Legacy 2.5 GT and Spec-B's run in the 1/4? I suspect the 2.5 GT will be on-par with the stock 08 WRX, but the Spec-B is much heavier and has the same engine as the 2.5 GT. How is the Legacy's build quality? I read that they are assembled in Indiana (along with the Toyota Camry out of the same SI plant) and my experience with American made cars is that the quality is very sub-par. I have numerous quality issues with the 07 Mustang GT that Ford claims is "normal". The Impreza appears to come from Japan and I would expect very good quality.
metroplex Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 How fast are the Legacy 2.5 GT and Spec-Bs? The Spec-B is much heavier and doesn't have more power. Also, how is the build quality on the Legacy? I see that they are made in Indiana and my experience with American made cars is less than stellar. My 07 GT has numerous quality issues.
ABPillinois Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 The build quality is pretty good fit and finish is good paint is so so. Overall it is better than most mid-level car from the big three american car companies. The fast thing well it depends on who you ask in general I think stock for stock the Spec b has faster times but it all depends on the driver, location and conditions. It's all dependent on what you are looking at and what kind of price difference you can get between the GT and Spec (my local dealer just finally sold the last 07 spec b a couple months ago). :rolleyes:"All right, brain, I don't like you and you don't like me - so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer."
sexylegacy Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 You should be able to run 14 flat on a stock LGT, just a touch slower with the Spec-B, but only because you have to shift more. 0-60 should be around 5.4 seconds. If you go stage 2 and upgrade the clutch, you can easily run around a 13.4 @ 106 MPH and 0-60 around 4.8 seconds. . I'm being conservative too. At stage 2, you'll push between 250 and 270 hp at the wheels.
Gasaraki Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 How fast are the Legacy 2.5 GT and Spec-Bs? The Spec-B is much heavier and doesn't have more power. Also, how is the build quality on the Legacy? I see that they are made in Indiana and my experience with American made cars is less than stellar. My 07 GT has numerous quality issues. Legacies are built in Indiana with Toyota Camrys. Camrys have been made in the USA for awhile now. The manufacturing location is only partly related to the reliability, the big part is design and engineering.
Living Legacy Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 Legacies are built in Indiana with Toyota Camrys. Camrys have been made in the USA for awhile now. The manufacturing location is only partly related to the reliability, the big part is design and engineering. I'm a quality manager for a small HVAC sensor /transmitter manufacturing company and I agree. Quality stems from the product design, implimentation and flow of processes, and employee perception/commitment. The reason why Toyota has set the bar is with their implimentation of Kaizen (basically a way to capture employee suggestions). Kaizen is so successful because it is the operators that are the experts, they see how these parts/process work together and thus make up the final product. Japan, in general, is ahead of American quality due to their commitment to quality dating back to the years after we dropped the bombs. When American car companies didn't recognize the fact that investing in quality will have high payouts and create a competitive advantage Deming, a key figure in quality, moved to Japan and they welcomed him with open arms. Japan has been basing it self around quality for years and now that the American car companies recognize that quality is in fact the most important thing that customers want (not some cheap piece of crap) and are trying to play catch up. Look at sourcing and the supply chain requirements for automobile components now a days, it now has very strict regulations because they are trying to accomplish quality with good components, but IMO they have missed it (compared to Japan) when it comes to engineering the processes. Did I just write all of that? -Whoa.
05GT Guru Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 technically...after stage 1 and 2 etc...you will be droppiong a bigger turbo which is not exactly cheap. with the mustang you have no choice but to skip the stages and get the kit. i wouldn't exactly say a waste of time....i would say not as easy for inital "small" gains. not trying to arugue car purchases etc, just trying to put the price points for modding in perspective. half the people upgrade the gt's suspension anyways...could do the mustang... I was saying its a waste of time because the GTs are useless v8s compared to GMs ls series, and ls1 can go form 350 at the crank to 390 at the crank with headers, exhaust and a lid. With cam and heads they can make 500 at the crank. The 4.6liter stangs even built cant do that.
metroplex Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 14 flat with a stock Legacy 2.5 GT is good enough for me, that is on-par with an automatic 2005-up Mustang GT. I just noticed that the Legacy's engine uses timing chains - a big plus over timing belts IMHO. The only things that I notice not available on the LGT are: 1). VDC w/ manual 2). Xenon HID low beam headlamps I also noticed the Spec-B has a Torsen rear diff, while the GT has a viscous coupling rear diff. Wouldn't the viscous coupling be better suited for the rear diff? My experiences with Torsen rear diffs on a RWD are less than stellar. What differential is used in the front? A Torsen? So far it looks like the Legacy GT is a much better buy than the WRX. I am familiar with Deming, Kaizen, and quality. I just recall that the quality of American made foreign brands isn't always the best (plenty of recalls for Japanese and German cars that are made in the US/Mexico). Are there any paint colors to avoid (lots of issues with delamination or other failures)? Are there any options to avoid or must-buy? The short-throw shifter looks pretty good but how much of a benefit does it provide? Shifting my Mustang feels like I am rowing a boat.
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