Clint's tips and tricks on brakes

[Viss1]

We're obviously talking about "power brake" systems here. Doesn't the engine have to be running to bleed the brakes properly?

 

No. You're moving the fluid through the lines either way.

[magnetic1]

No. You're moving the fluid through the lines either way.

 

Correct, it is a closed hydraulic system. There is no "pump" that circulates fluid.

[dr_sharp]

Is it necessary to bleed when swapping pads and rotors or just recommended? I have my 90k coming up in about 10k miles. Would rather not attempt bleeding myself.

[MiniStiGuy]

Yes you need to bleed the system.

[evasabzacami]

First and foremost – brakes are a no joke thing on your car. If you are new to brakes have someone teach you how to work on them. Despite all the reading in the world on this subject this is something you should be taught to do instead of trying to figure it out yourself.

 

Second – If you are new to brakes get someone to teach you. Yes, it had to be said twice. It’s that important.

 

Now, this is by no means an all inclusive document on brakes. Instead it is a few tips and tricks I have learned over the years.

 

Some background on my brake experience: I started helping Dad work on the brakes on the family cars and trucks when I was seven by handing him tools. By 12 I was doing the disk brakes myself with his supervision. By 15 I had the arm strength to do the drum brakes on my own. By 16 I was doing brakes unsupervised by him. Now, this does not mean I am immune to learning new things. Far from it. Quite often I see someone with lots of experience post up a new tip or trick to working on brakes, and if it makes sense I try it out. Most of the time it works nicely.

 

On to the tips and tricks. I will try and keep this brand generic as we can cover that later.

 

Pads –

Run the proper pad for what you are going to be doing with the car!!! Do not run street pads on the track. They can’t take the heat.

Do not run high end track pads on the street. They need time to warm up to operating temp.

Do not run track pads and expect to get low dust and no noise. In a race environment dust and noise fall WAY down on the importance list.

Buy the best pads for your application that you can afford.

Be aware of the limitations of these pads, and don’t out drive them. Remember, no matter how fast you go eventually you have to stop.

 

Fluid –

Regular street level fluid on a NORMALLY driven street car – change every two years.

Good fluid that sees aggressive driving on the street – change once a year.

Good fluid that sees heavy autoX usage on a “race on Sunday drive to work on Monday car” – change a couple of times a season at the very least.

Good fluid that sees hard track use – fresh fluid for each event.

 

Rotors –

Buy good rotors. Not unknown cheapy ebay ones that you have no idea who made them.

Slotted – not really necessary unless you are heavily racing in the rain

Drilled – NO NO NO a thousand times NO!

Two piece, semi-floating or fully floating – there’s a time, a place and a budget for these. 99% of the cars on this board will never need this time place or budget. Quite honestly they are not necessary unless you're REALLY into autoX or the track, and chances are if you are into those things I'm not going to tell you anything you don't already know about them.

 

Turning the rotors – if you feel they need it then do it, but don’t fall into the “warped” rotor myth. If you can see pad impressions on the rotors then get them lightly turned after a bed-in (see below).

 

NEVER run a rotor that is below the recommended thickness spec. It’s just not worth the risk. Period.

 

 

General tips on pads, fluid or rotors –

Brake squeal – this is actually a vibration you are hearing. It’s the pad backing plate chattering against the pistons. Anti-squeal rubbery goop is supposed to help prevent this. I’ve never really cared for it. For many years I ran a good grease on the backing plates and it worked just fine. Until! I got a suggestion to run high temp anti-seize instead. I gave it a shot. I will never go back to grease.

 

Fluid – Use good fluid for your application. Please note – DOT 5 is NOT what to run in our cars. It’s a silicone based fluid made for preservation of lines in classic cars. DOT 5.1 is the stuff to look at for actual driving if you choose to use a DOT 5 series fluid.

 

Whenever you replace pads OR rotors, not both, but EITHER you should do a bed-in process. Here’s the process I have used for years:

45-10 using medium pressure 3-4 times

Drive to cool for a little bit

55-10 using medium pressure 3-4 times

Drive to cool for a little bit

65-5 using hard pressure but not locking them up 3-4 times

Drive for 20 minutes to cool them.

If you must come to a stop in that time do so gently, and just hold the car at the stop with the least amount of pedal pressure that you can (or use your hand brake).

 

 

Please note, you can do a bed-in process at any time. In fact, if you are starting to feel a slight vibration in your wheel during light braking due to pad deposits do a bed in process before thinking about getting your rotors turned.

 

If you are changing shoes as in on drum brakes (remember your handbrakes are drums in the rear. They just happen to be in the hat of the rotor) do each side one at a time from start to finish. This way you can go and look at the other side in case you forget how it goes back together (and you will forget).

 

Couple of general points –

Use brake cleaner spray to clean machining oil and finger oil from rotors

Use brake cleaner spray and a rag to clean up stuff in there.

If you use an airgun for spraying dust out don’t breathe it. While pads are no longer made with asbestos I’m sure breathing that crap still isn’t exactly good for you.

Wipe things down so you can see what you’re doing.

Apply grease or anti-seize to the slider pins on the frame that holds you pads in place.

Apply grease or anti-seize to the backing plates of the pads

Apply grease of anti-seize to the clips that hold the backing plate tabs

 

I'll disagree with you about slots on the rotors - they are very useful because they clean the burned surface of the pads during extreme braking and they also remove the dust. So I say slots are necessary!!!

[dr_sharp]

I'll disagree with you about slots on the rotors - they are very useful because they clean the burned surface of the pads during extreme braking and they also remove the dust. So I say slots are necessary!!!

I've never heard that before, but its an interesting point. Makes me temped to try slots, I get pretty bad deposits from my driving and I really dislike the re-bed-in procedure b/c I feel like I'm just wasting pad by using it to heat the rotor high enough to remove the deposits.

[evasabzacami]

I've never heard that before, but its an interesting point. Makes me temped to try slots, I get pretty bad deposits from my driving and I really dislike the re-bed-in procedure b/c I feel like I'm just wasting pad by using it to heat the rotor high enough to remove the deposits.

 

Actually you can see this information on the pages of most producers. As an example http://www.dba.com.au/node/5556

[1454]

I've never heard that before, but its an interesting point. Makes me temped to try slots, I get pretty bad deposits from my driving and I really dislike the re-bed-in procedure b/c I feel like I'm just wasting pad by using it to heat the rotor high enough to remove the deposits.

 

On racing applications this is the reason behind slots. It's to relieve the gas that builds up (only small, but it does exist) to combat fade.

[1454]

Correct, it is a closed hydraulic system. There is no "pump" that circulates fluid.

 

The "power" aspect of the "power brakes" are provided by vacuum, and are only for an easier to push pedal. Personally, after driving race cars without power brakes, I don't care much for it. Then again, I don't really care for ABS either. Just personal preference.

[1454]

Sorry, this comment was made before I fully looked though all the stickies. I'm usually better than this. Sorry again. Edited May 8, 2011 by 1454

[instantfury]

i have a rattle in the rear that goes away when i press on the brakes. any ideas?

[BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited]

Ok, I read through this and the other brake sticky. And didn't see an exact answer from the experts.

 

I'm replacing all 4 calipers, rotors, F&R pads all in one shot for two reasons.

 

#1 - I had a seal go bad on a rear caliper, I rebuilt the caliper which was way too easy and the bleed screw was frozen, I forgot to spray it with PB and it broke off. Became a big PITA to get a replacement screw as no one carried one and I didn't have an easy-out. So...I'm saying flock it...and replacing the caliper. I also figured it couldn't hurt to replace the other rear caliper as well while I have the $$ and time and be proactive on the seals.

 

#2 - 00-02 LGT's (Limited's too) had the 10.7" front rotors. In 03-04 they were upgraded to the 11.4" WRX rotors. I've read it can be done by just replacing the bracket and getting the larger rotor, but the bracket is $35 where I can get a new caliper w/bracket from NAPA for $60.

 

So she's getting all new hardware for about $550, no more frozen bleed screws to worry about, good piston seals, and an extra half-inch in the front.

 

Which brings me to my actual question....since I'm replacing both pads and rotors at the same time...is there a suggested bed-in for this case? Or is it even needed?

[caramall2]

Yes, you need to bed them in. This transfers a thin layer to the rotor (whether a new rotor or an old one). See sites like carbotech to get bed in procedures (that's what I use) and for more tech details on why you bed in see:

 

http://www.centricparts.com/files/Centric%20White%20Paper%20C2-Bed-In%20Theory.pdf

[BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited]

That's what I was thinking, and was going to do it anyways unless someone threw up a red flag to not do it for some unknown reason.

 

I just read over the part on the first page that said do a bed-in with either/or on a pad/rotor change but nothing about both and was kinda confused.

[downtoearth]

any suggestions or hints with dealing/solving squeaking right rear wheel issue after a down hill mountain run with super hot brakes?

 

its pretty embarrassing to drive through the town at the bottom with people on the side walk staring at me as I drive by

 

 

SQUEAK SQUEAK SQUEAK SQUEAK you get the idea

[reborngarcia1985]

I have worked in a few shops and this is the 2 time I see someone say that the OE want to bleed the brakes from the front to the rear. I dont understand the reasoning behind that. Why not start in the rear and work your way to the front. This way you know that the lines are going to have clean fluid as you go the front.

[NavigatorsLegacy]

So I changed my pads and rotors using Stop Tech. I'm not a racer but I bought them because I wanted a little more bite over stock... Now on for 542 miles of 70/30; highway/city driving and my wheels looks like they were plasti dipped and my car was washed last week(342 miles). Am I plagued forever with brake dust now?

Damn!

[eric_t]

i didn't read all 7 pages, but isn't there an order to do each corner? I know when i owned my STI and did fluid flushes, i had to go in a certain order...can't really remember why, either.

[MiniStiGuy]

you could try to search or I guess we can tell you.

 

Start from the farthest wheel from the MC and work your way around ending on the closest one to it.

[Max Capacity]

One tip I've come to learn lately is to make sure the pads slide freely in the spring clips in the caliper brackets.

 

I have take a number of different brakes to the bench grinder and removed a few thousandth's from the top bottom and end of the tabs.

 

Use a good grease NAPA has 3M Silicone Paste that is supposed to be great for this. It's expensive, $24.00. (been using the green Permatex grease) I just bought a bottle and will try it when I get the free replacement calipers for my Spec B. Long story about my trials with brakes on both my cars.

 

Seems currently brake parts for these cars are hard to get. Might have to do with covid-19.

 

Picked up the calipers from NAPA earlier today. I swapped out the brackets, and brought the cores back. I asked the guy if I was the only one with issues.

 

He told me no. Cardon finally figured out the problem almost a year ago and thing have been better since. I told him when it cools down outside, I'll check the fronts because they were installed at the same time as the rear calipers and the brakes are not as good as they were 15,000 miles ago in mid 2017.

 

Some of you may know I had to get 5 right front calipers on my 05 Wagon. Finally back in April this year the 5th caliper is so much better. The wagon will coast better then it has for years. NAPA has been good with warranty, all these replacements have been free even 3 years later.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Max Capacity

[Max Capacity]

Learned some things today.

 

I picked up the free replacement front calipers from NAPA.

 

I had to run a tap, I think its 12mmx1.25 in the mount holes to the steering knuckle, there was a lot of paint in the threads. The rears last week had the same issue just not as bad.

 

after that I removed the bracket and slide pins. Took the rubber boots off and greased the pins with 3M silicone paste, put anti-seize on the bolts and made sure they were easy to install.

 

Now the good stuff.

 

I put the spring clips that came with the calipers into the brackets and fit the pads to them. I found a interference fit between the long lower side edge of the pads and the spring clips.

Used my bench grinder to remove some of the that length.

 

After playing around, I tried some other spring clips I have in my spare parts.

Guess what, the part of the spring clip where that long vertical tab/edge on the pad rest was longer.

 

I'm using those clips not the ones that came with the calipers.

 

 

 

[Max Capacity]

Here are the other shots,

 

 

[boxkita]

racer trick. break off all the metal and don't use the springs. Probably bad idea, but worked great. ymmv

[Max Capacity]

racer trick. break off all the metal and don't use the springs. Probably bad idea, but worked great. ymmv

 

Yeah, I was thinking about doing that, breaking of the metal indicators ...not like I haven't in the past.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Max Capacity

[Rojasher25]

Learned some things today.

 

 

 

I picked up the free replacement front calipers from NAPA.

 

 

 

I had to run a tap, I think its 12mmx1.25 in the mount holes to the steering knuckle, there was a lot of paint in the threads. The rears last week had the same issue just not as bad.

 

 

 

after that I removed the bracket and slide pins. Took the rubber boots off and greased the pins with 3M silicone paste, put anti-seize on the bolts and made sure they were easy to install.

 

 

 

Now the good stuff.

 

 

 

I put the spring clips that came with the calipers into the brackets and fit the pads to them. I found a interference fit between the long lower side edge of the pads and the spring clips.

 

Used my bench grinder to remove some of the that length.

 

 

 

After playing around, I tried some other spring clips I have in my spare parts.

 

Guess what, the part of the spring clip where that long vertical tab/edge on the pad rest was longer.

 

 

 

I'm using those clips not the ones that came with the calipers.

 

 

 

[ATTACH]286596[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

[ATTACH]286597[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

[ATTACH]286598[/ATTACH]

I've had so much trouble with the clips that come with the napa calipers. They either won't stay in the brackets and pop out, or like you pointed out, they're bent at the wrong spot. The pads we use come with clips and so do the adaptive one premiums from napa. Those usually work great.

 

Sidenote, the low pad indicators should go on the inner side and down. And the clips with the "legs" on the sides should also go on the lower part of the brackets

 

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