Oh this suspension.....

[Scooter]

^^^ Even if he's being REALLY sarcastic??

 

Not sure what you're describing, Todd - can you elaborate? What revs were you at in 2nd and 3rd?

[ToddMcF2002]

Although it was a true story - I was being sarcastic. I mean come on an Expedition??? geesh.

 

Anyway - what I was trying to describe was this:

 

I got the expected power through second gear - and I shifted around 5800 RPMs when I felt the torque die and 3rd gear revved up the RPMs slower than normal and there was little torque - almost as if I shifted too early and punched it with insufficient RPMs to carry the gear. It felt like there was no turbo boost, just the standard torque delivery with no boost.

 

It wasnt my imagination. I posted a few days back that 2nd gear had the habit of doing this and today (for this launch) 3rd acted up.

[Xenonk]

you gotta keep the rpms above 3500 rpms on the next following higher gear, if you fal below 3000 rpms, it's going to fall flat on its face.. the other thing that you are experiencing is the lack of the turbo's capabilities after 4500 rpms as your downpipe and exhuast is really restricting the top end.

[ToddMcF2002]

It was definately over 3500 rpms. Maybe I shifted too close to redline and entered 3rd near the end of the low end RPM boost window? I definately want a boost guage.

 

I also need to spend a little time launching to better understand the torque delivery of this car.

[Xenonk]

yes, that can definitely happen.. it happens a lot of times for me on the track, I usually short shift the car just to get more torque for the next following gear.. I normally shift at not more than 5500 to 6000.. that would make the rpms drop roughly a good 2000 rpms so it's very near the 3500 to 4000 rpm mark where torque is at its best.. the gearing is spaced out just right to where it's suppose to be consistent with the stock power band.

 

a good way to get more power from 4000 rpms and up is to get the car to breathe better, so an exhaust is THE thing to get and then if you could, increase the intake air flow track so that the turbo has more volume of air to pull in rather than trying to suck through a tiny straw.

[ToddMcF2002]

Thanks for the clarification - great info.

 

Hmmm... my mental mod list is getting out of control! I've been reading about Stage II and filters - but really I've got to get on the handling solutions you folks have helped me with. I can't put 300+ hp into this car as leaving suspension and breaks stock!

 

Sure is fun reading about this stuff though. There really wasnt a heck of a lot you could do with the M3 without supercharging, which is big bucks. Pullies, exhaust, cats, software etc. really don't amount to much for the M3. These Subaru's on the other hand - I can't believe what you can get out of simple ECU map!

[ToddMcF2002]

So 1st through 3rd, no issues at all today.

 

Does stage 1 help with any of this? I was looking at the revised torque curves and claims about less peaky boost. Just curious.

[Xenonk]

it's a turbo car, so you'll get more out of it anyways.. with an N/A motor, you have to spend more to get more power.

 

I do a lot of track events and autocross a lot and I left my car completely stock in terms of power/engine work. What I did was to work on suspension and brakes instead as I found that the car is plenty fast as it is, but it lacks a lot of the suspension to make it a fair contender to the rest of the pack. The car's brakes are fairly on the good side of things and requires very little upgrading for track use.

 

Remember, it's a turbo car, it's more weather dependent than an N/A motor. So what you can experience in one day can be different in the next day. Even I have come to realize when I did so many track days that I can feel heat soak even when Im driving during my track sessions and you can tell the motor doesnt want to push out the initial effort as the first session or the first 30 minutes of the session.. coolant and oil temps may look ok throughout the board, but once you start leaving the car in a lower gear and really spinning up that motor to really push for those extra seconds, it all adds up to some extra work. The engine doesnt care if we are doing 10 mph or 1000 mph (as that's what the tranny's job is), all it knows is the rpms, so if you can keep the rpms down but still go just as fast, that's how you make the engine last longer (something I kinda learn from endurance racing).

 

Just keep learning the characteristics of driving an AWD turbo car.. you have twice as much resistance basically and you also have to learn how to deal with creating boost at your control (or at least understand how the car interprets your inputs in order to know when to give you boost, you'll realize that the car doesnt always give you full boost when you hammer the gas, the stock ECU interprets everything for you to maximize reliability first and then give you power by adding timing, boost and fuel in their respective mix). Once you understand that, you won't ever feel lag and no more bogged launches.. I dont think I have botched a launch in a long time (4 years?) and still have a working tranny and clutch that has lasted me well above 70,000 miles. You might want to look up "rally launching", if you can't find it, you can PM me as I think i still have my PMs that people ask me how to launch a turbo AWD car [as most people either beat up their clutches and trannies or bog/stall the car badly]

 

I taught enough to my brother that he has over 100,000 miles on his 2002 WRX on stage 2 (still on the stock tranny AND clutch mind you), and by no means he drives slow, but we dont abuse the car either.

[ToddMcF2002]

That is some really great info - I appreciate your help. I need to research a few things you have said about air volume as well. Glad to hear about the brakes too - I really havent pushed that yet. I definately can appreciate that you have invested in suspension over everything else. As I've said the handling was a huge departure from my M3 while the power was somewhat similiar - and now that I'm starting to adjust to the softer Legacy suspension my perceptions are starting to focus more on the torque delivery. I'll keep that to "research" only and spend mod money initially on suspension. I had just about decided to get the IONs and live with stock struts until they blow but now I'm realizing that the upcoming Koni's + IONs are pricing similiar to coilovers. I've got to be careful there. I don't think I need coilovers, but I'm not sure that getting a fixed suspension for roughly the same money is wise.

[GTBGUY]

ToddMcF2002 - For 99% of enthusiasts, a properly matched spring/strut combo is more suitable then going with coil-overs. Especially if you do alot of street driving. Coil-overs are certainly nice for adjustability, but most are too stiff for the street and/or require alot of extra maintence plus extra noise/vibration/harshness over a properly matched spring/strut combo. (ie: rebuilding the coilover, removing them to clean them periodically etc).

[Max Rebo]

Yes, many people JDM GT dampers with aftermarket springs and are quite happy, although majority of them has JDM GT Rev. A dampers - stiffer than Rev.C. Also some discriminating drivers, like Max Rebo upgrade the dampers in the USDM SpecB sedan to "real" JDM SpecB dampers - much more aggresively damped.

 

 

Word.

 

Discriminating driver, eh? I feel special now!

I'm a discriminating coffee and beer drinker, too.

 

Anyway... yeah, the USDM specB suspension blows. Sure, it's comfortable, but as soon as you push it just a little bit, you'll notice excess squat, dive, and body roll.

 

I bought JDM specB pinks and installed them under the impression that they'd work with the USDM specB Bilsteins. I was wrong. Well... they work, but it's not optimal. The car is underdamped, especially in the rear. The JDM specB Rev.C Bilsteins should help tremendously. I also plan to buy F/R swaybars afterward.

 

My Bilsteins should arrive by Christmas if all goes well. ... Or is it Festivus??

[Vimy101]

^ Blows? To each his own. I love mine. Smooth and quick to react. I push the car hard frequently and am always pleased with how the Spec.B handles. It's not a race car but if I wanted a race car I would have bought a race car. What it is is a nice balance between touring and sport.

 

This is an interesting site. I've never seen another one where owners hate their cars so much. Then many of them with their multi hundred dollar budgets go on to try and do better than the car's engineers and designers and fail.

[Max Rebo]

^ Blows? To each his own. I love mine. Smooth and quick to react. I push the car hard frequently and am always pleased with how the Spec.B handles. It's not a race car but if I wanted a race car I would have bought a race car. What it is is a nice balance between touring and sport.

 

This is an interesting site. I've never seen another one where owners hate their cars so much. Then many of them with their multi hundred dollar budgets go on to try and do better than the car's engineers and designers and fail.

 

Yes, you read correctly. Based on my expectations, it blows. Here's my point of view with some examples:

 

My former VW R32's stock suspension wasn't that great either. It had okay springs and crap Monroe shocks. I replaced it with the Euro OEM R32 suspension, which consisted of H&R springs and Bilstein Sport dampers. Just personal preference, that's all. I'm not hating the car, just the suspension. It would be nice to have an OEM option, but that'll never happen unless we get the fabled Legacy STi. The USDM Bilsteins don't deserve their brand name. They're *that* mildly-tuned. In comparison, they don't even come close to how Bilstein's sport dampers perform, but I suppose that wasn't Subaru's intention, and that's okay.

 

The USDM specB doesn't have a proper sport suspension. If anyone here thinks it does, then they've never driven a car with a good sport suspenison. It's tuned for comfort just like many other family sedans with sporting pretentions. It exhibits too much squat, dive, and body roll. The OP knows what I'm talking about. A sport setup doesn't have to be quite like the E46 M3 that he had, but it should be similar without being harsh.

 

It doesn't have to be coilover-stiff, but take an H&R/Bilstein Sport combination, for example. It's quite a bit stiffer and much more responsive than the stock specB setup... at least it was on my last two VWs. (I know... different car, but that's the way H&R/Bilstein usually goes.) At the same time, it's not as stiff as coilovers, which I've also had. Putting a good sport suspension on the Legacy doesn't turn it into a race car -- not even close -- although it might feel like it to some people if they're accustomed to softer setups.

 

I'm hoping to post a great review once I install the JDM specB Rev.C Bilsteins that are on their way, and a better review if I go one step further with swaybars. Subaru's engineers did their job just fine, but they didn't tune the suspension for performance. If they had, it would be much better... sort of like the Legacy STi, I'd wager.

[ToddMcF2002]

Mine was an E46 M3, quite a bit stiffer than the E36. Tonight I really missed my M3.

 

I hit a highway ramp as fast as I felt safe in this car. Not all that fast but enough to get some pretty serious lean going . The really sad thing was my wife was right on my tail in her Honda Pilot!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

 

I know I sound like a broken record in this thread but tonight was quietly humiliating for Subaru.

 

(oh and as an aside - I was NOT racing my wife so this is NOT a kill story so don't start that ban talk again! )

[Max Rebo]

Mine was an E46 M3, quite a bit stiffer than the E36. Tonight I really missed my M3.

 

Oops! That's what I meant to write. I was picturing the correct car, but I spewed out E36 instead of E46.

 

Fixed.

[ToddMcF2002]

Unforgivable. For full forgiveness give me your struts!

[Vimy101]

Yes, you read correctly. Based on my expectations, it blows. Here's my point of view with some examples:

 

My former VW R32's stock suspension wasn't that great either. It had okay springs and crap Monroe shocks. I replaced it with the Euro OEM R32 suspension, which consisted of H&R springs and Bilstein Sport dampers. Just personal preference, that's all. I'm not hating the car, just the suspension. It would be nice to have an OEM option, but that'll never happen unless we get the fabled Legacy STi. The USDM Bilsteins don't deserve their brand name. They're *that* mildly-tuned. In comparison, they don't even come close to how Bilstein's sport dampers perform, but I suppose that wasn't Subaru's intention, and that's okay.

 

The USDM specB doesn't have a proper sport suspension. If anyone here thinks it does, then they've never driven a car with a good sport suspenison. It's tuned for comfort just like many other family sedans with sporting pretentions. It exhibits too much squat, dive, and body roll. The OP knows what I'm talking about. A sport setup doesn't have to be quite like the E46 M3 that he had, but it should be similar without being harsh.

 

It doesn't have to be coilover-stiff, but take an H&R/Bilstein Sport combination, for example. It's quite a bit stiffer and much more responsive than the stock specB setup... at least it was on my last two VWs. (I know... different car, but that's the way H&R/Bilstein usually goes.) At the same time, it's not as stiff as coilovers, which I've also had. Putting a good sport suspension on the Legacy doesn't turn it into a race car -- not even close -- although it might feel like it to some people if they're accustomed to softer setups.

 

I'm hoping to post a great review once I install the JDM specB Rev.C Bilsteins that are on their way, and a better review if I go one step further with swaybars. Subaru's engineers did their job just fine, but they didn't tune the suspension for performance. If they had, it would be much better... sort of like the Legacy STi, I'd wager.

 

That's a nicely reasoned post. I understand where you're coming from now and I find it very informative. I'm a big fan of good suspensions which is why I hope to follow your explorations (and unclemat's) and wish you the best of luck with your tuning. However....

 

The USDM Spec.B is a fabulous car for the USDM. We live in the US (or Canada) and many of us cover vast distances daily unlike Europe or Japan. The OEM Spec.B suspension is extremely competent and even - dare I say it? - fun.

 

We all know the league the Spec.B is trying to run in: entry Audis, Acuras, BMWs, Volvos, Infiniti, Lexus. You know that the Spec.B matches up very favourably with all of those makes at the entry luxury level . The league is located in NA.

 

For what the LGT is, the Spec.B is an excellent offering. Though, an STi option package would be extremely cool.

[Scooter]

What's this? Reasoned, non-acrimonious debate?? An appreciation for other people's viewpoints??? Did I make a wrong click somewhere or has our little forum finally grown up??

 

haha, j/k Great discussion, guys! And note to self: I really have to test drive a car with the Bilsteins to see what all the fuss is about...

[Max Rebo]

Has anyone driven an Audi A4 recently? In my opinion, the LGT and the specB should have stock suspensions equivalent to what the A4 offers, and it still leaves room for upgrades if the owner desires. Our 2006 A4 Avant is just as comfortable as the stock specB, but it exhibits less squat, dive, and body roll. I don't know how they do it, but for a stock suspension it performs very well -- so much better than our 2001 S4 Avant, which felt like a boat going through turns and produced lots of squat/dive. Audi does offer a sport suspension option, which is also a good upgrade. I imagine it being similar to an H&R/Bilstein sport setup.

 

I'm done rambling for now. Gotta get motivated to do some work here.

[Vimy101]

Just going on how the respective cars sit, the Spec.B appears to have higher ground clearance than the Audi. That would account for some extra suspension travel due to weight transfer. Perhaps we're looking at rally hertitage vs. road racing.

[ToddMcF2002]

The A4 is hideously slow.

[tantal]

The A4 is hideously slow.

 

Um, you of all people should appreciate just HOW LITTLE he was talking about power.

 

I'm really disappointed in your post. I thought you honestly appreciate good handling cars, and how poorly the LGT stacks up against even an A4.

 

[ToddMcF2002]

I'd rather be in the position of upgrading the suspension in the LGT. The A4 isnt just a "little" bit slower you know. The 2.0T 6 speed is a mid 7's car? Seriously, that's enemic!

 

Also, the 3.2L 6spd is a 6.5 second car - but at $37K you ought to be looking at the WRX STi Limited - cheaper, much faster, similar handling.

[Max Rebo]

I'd rather be in the position of upgrading the suspension in the LGT. The A4 isnt just a "little" bit slower you know. The 2.0T 6 speed is a mid 7's car? Seriously, that's enemic!

 

Also, the 3.2L 6spd is a 6.5 second car - but at $37K you ought to be looking at the WRX STi Limited - cheaper, much faster, similar handling.

 

Mid 7's isn't anemic for what it is... ~3700 lbs. / 200 hp / 207 lb*ft. For as heavy as our A4 Avant is, it goes pretty well for a family wagon. Anyway, the 2.0T has plenty of aftermarket available to achieve over 300hp. I also doubt that there are many who look at an A4 3.2 and cross-shop an STi. (Although I have. )

 

That's OT, though. I was just referring to the stock suspension dynamics.

[tantal]

I drove the STI and WRX. I was not impressed with either car - not because the handling wasnt good - it was. These cars just are not anywhere near as nice as even the LGT - they are loud, the materials are not very nice, and they dont feel particularly solid.

 

For the money, I think the RX8 > > WRX, and particularly the STI - the STI and RX-8, similarly equipped are about the same money, but the RX-8 is so so much nicer to live with, and excepting power, gives up absolutely nothing to the STI - I think it handles even better than the STI.

 

But, JMO. Seems like just about everyone on internet message boards (including rx8club) is so blindly obsessed with straight line speed and horsepower that they ignore some great cars out there.

 

If you'd choose a corvette over a base boxster, that pretty much says it all. And thank god so many do, otherwise the cars I love so much would command much higher prices. =)