GTwannaB Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Anyone know if Subaru is putting these black boxes (Event Data Recorder) in their cars? story from cnn.com http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/21/event_data_recorder_rule/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XToutbackfan Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Here in California, since '04 dealers had to disclose whether there was a "black box" or dedicated data recorder on-board. I purhcased my '06 OB XT 4 weeks ago, and I received no such notice. Given the similarities across Subaru models, it's my guess there is not a dedicated data recorder on board. However, my reading of various sources on the internet indicates there are numerous other repositories for performance data that can be mined by a variety of 3rd party tools. For example, the air bag computer stores information like speed, throttle position, steering wheel position when it fires off the air bag charge. I would guess various engine computers store information. I'm sure the ABS has some method of storing data. I believe the only true distinction between a data recorder and these data "islands" is that one has a dedicated function of collecting all "state" data continuously. My conclusion is that if the driver's behavior immediately prior to the accident is in question, the insurance company may shell out $$ to mine this data to get themselves off the claim hook. The absence of a data recorder protects the driver from car rental companies or fleet managers who might down load data in an effort to control drivers' behavior independent of a specific event. This is the type of data collection that must be identified to new car owners (and renters). Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4wantab Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I have been following this a bit and it is going to get sticky. It is unclear as to who owns the data. After a wreck that is questionable, who owns the data? The group that holds the note on your car, the insurance company, the state, the feds, or you? There have been a few cases where the data was used to dispute what the owner/driver said happened. Eitherway, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I am in IL and I do not think the dealer has to let you know if the vehicle has a black box or not. Peace, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 With these sort of things becoming prevalent, and the increasing over-regulation of the industry, including new US rollover standards that the industry says it can't meet, and the british testing a GPS-linked brake system that decelerates your car (or motorcycle, which is what they tested it on... ) if you go over the speed limit the GPS says applies to the road you are on. This kind of big brother, nanny-state BS is eventually going to drive me to buy old cars. I am thinking air-cooled 60s-80s porsche... or a classic V8 RWD sedan. Something without a microprocessor aboard in any shape or form. Maybe a fuel injection computer, but like Battlestar Galactica, it won't be networked to ANYTHING, to avoid Cylon/Government infiltration. Who thinks this is such a great idea? What significant and pressing problem does this information overlord crap solve? It opens the door to opression by authority figures with nefarious agendas. Maybe it doesn't affect everyone negatively now, or even in the near future, but it does bring up privacy and ownership issues, and creates vulnerabilities, without creating much of a positive impact of any sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
700watts Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 ^^^ I was thinking the same....soon I'm going to have to buy an old car with no computer in it...thats also good if we get attacked by an EMF bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rony Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Welcome to Hacking your car 101.. My Car vBGarage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neonwannabe Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Does anyone know for SURE? Who would know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th3Franz Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Mine doesn't have MP3 input for crying out loud.. I don't think it will have a black box that costs Subaru extra money and will just piss the owners off. -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
700watts Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Mine doesn't have MP3 input for crying out loud.. I don't think it will have a black box that costs Subaru extra money and will just piss the owners off. Good Point !!! :icon_mrgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach999 Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 I have buddy who has an subie wagon and he modded his engine with some sort of chip and forgot to tune the car afterwards and he blew his engine out. He removed the chip and took the car back to the dealer and the dealer replaced the entire engine without even asking if he modded the engine. I figured the dealer would have some way to check the ECU for some sort of history of reprograms (flash memory counts, etc) but he just kept on saying, "Do you know what you are talking about?" Of course my real answer is no I don't understand the finer points of the ECU and Subarus but I was wondering if the dealer could have found out if he had put a chip in it at one point? Zach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrational Exuberance Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 my 02 wrx did not have a black box recorder when it got wrecked (to bad for me). they still dont use them. iirc, NHTSA website lists all the auto companys that use Event Data Recorders "i like my women the way i like terrorists... ...screaming gods name and ready to explode." http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5479/troy3nu5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psucaptainkickass Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 With these sort of things becoming prevalent, and the increasing over-regulation of the industry, including new US rollover standards that the industry says it can't meet, and the british testing a GPS-linked brake system that decelerates your car (or motorcycle, which is what they tested it on... ) if you go over the speed limit the GPS says applies to the road you are on. This kind of big brother, nanny-state BS is eventually going to drive me to buy old cars. I am thinking air-cooled 60s-80s porsche... or a classic V8 RWD sedan. Something without a microprocessor aboard in any shape or form. Maybe a fuel injection computer, but like Battlestar Galactica, it won't be networked to ANYTHING, to avoid Cylon/Government infiltration. Who thinks this is such a great idea? What significant and pressing problem does this information overlord crap solve? It opens the door to opression by authority figures with nefarious agendas. Maybe it doesn't affect everyone negatively now, or even in the near future, but it does bring up privacy and ownership issues, and creates vulnerabilities, without creating much of a positive impact of any sort. The phone is attached to my car with a cord. October can't come soon enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4wantab Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 In todays litigation age it is never your/my fault. So companies go to extremes to cover there ass. Zach's buddy cost us all a few pennys. It may not sound like much now but it all adds up. I do not agree with it and my next car will not have a black box but I can't blame the manufacturers for trying to get a hold of warrantee costs. The real problem is accident data. Now you have someone making judgement calls if you were wrong or not. All I have ever seen of the legal system is whom ever has the most money wins. GM lawers used to joke about this, but it true. How do you think your average joe stacks up to GM or State Farm. Sure there are some victories......... after 10 years. By then who knows where you will be. Sorry to be so negative. I am just working so hard because I have millions of people on welfare depending on me..... Peace, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4wantab Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Latest: http://www.ncsl.org/programs/lis/privacy/blackbox06.htm Peace, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilleg Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 so do we have a EDR or blackbox in our car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zennoodle Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 ... shocking, Texas doesn't have them. (sarcastic) haha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilleg Posted March 31, 2007 Share Posted March 31, 2007 i wish we dont have one...please tell me we dont have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilleg Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 and where does the EDR locate in our car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwinn Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 I'd like to know, for sure, if we do/don't have one... but I imagine that we do. This page seems to indicate that we do have it: http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/edr.html#5 Incidentally, question #9 there says that the vehicle owner owns the data, though it can be court-ordered to be released. Of course, I know that this is not the letter of the law... Also, note, the DOT has required manufacturers to tell owners if this device is in their cars, so they can't "hide" it. Anyone close to Subaru USA care to simply ask them? Obviously, they won't lie about it... EDIT: More general information from GM here: http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/safety/protect_occupants/event_data_recorders/index.html Including a link to the DOT rule mentioned above. EDIT2: Google led me to another interesting PDF: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/edr-site/uploads/edrs-summary_of_findings3.pdf - section 10.4 titled "IWI EDR Testing" specifically lists a Subaru Legacy as one of their test platforms. This would lead me to believe we already have them. I guess IWI is the brand of the EDR... anyone see any such-labeled module in the car somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilleg Posted April 1, 2007 Share Posted April 1, 2007 damn,,,so we have one... we should disable it right away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Charlie Posted April 2, 2007 Share Posted April 2, 2007 Incidentally, question #9 there says that the vehicle owner owns the data, though it can be court-ordered to be released. Of course, I know that this is not the letter of the law... You own the car, you own the data. The finance company doesn't own the car, they just hold the title as collateral. The insurance company doesn't own it until after it's totaled, then the car and its onboard data are theirs. Johnny Law doesn't own it without a subpoena (or if they haul the wreck away as evidence). Tearing out the black box after an accident is evidence tampering. Doing it beforehand as a normal hack will probably be illegal within 10-15 years. The problem with government is that everyone in it thinks government is the answer. I hate those people. And yeah, Zach999's buddy made me pay more for my Subaru than I should have had to. Next time you see him, Zach, tell him Fat Charlie says fuch you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msb175 Posted April 3, 2007 Share Posted April 3, 2007 wow, so Legacy's do have one. interesting....good to know...i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I'm just as OK with black boxes in cars as I am with black boxes in airplanes, and for the same reasons. If you're driving on public roads, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, and should assume that your actions may be recorded. Why shouldn't they be? Public roads are public places. From a security-theory point of view, if you pull the EDR from your car, is makes the data more obscure (harder to find) but it doesn't stop anyone else from, say, filming you. It doesn't make your actions any more private. The way I figure, if everyone's car has a black box, I can be a little less worried about someone else doing something stupid, bending my car, and getting away with it. I don't speed (much) and I drive carefully and safely, so I figure these things work in my favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
700watts Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I'm just as OK with black boxes in cars as I am with black boxes in airplanes, and for the same reasons. If you're driving on public roads, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy, and should assume that your actions may be recorded. Why shouldn't they be? Public roads are public places. From a security-theory point of view, if you pull the EDR from your car, is makes the data more obscure (harder to find) but it doesn't stop anyone else from, say, filming you. It doesn't make your actions any more private. The way I figure, if everyone's car has a black box, I can be a little less worried about someone else doing something stupid, bending my car, and getting away with it. I don't speed (much) and I drive carefully and safely, so I figure these things work in my favor. U gattha be a democrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheatleya Posted April 4, 2007 Share Posted April 4, 2007 I think he must be a republican. You know, like wire tapping, data mining, and trying to regulate your bedroom. Not that we are having a political discussion or anything. I really don't think its necessary to have EDR's. 99% of traffic accidents can easily be figured out by looking at the scene and talking to people. I do realize that sometimes this isn't the case, but I don't think there are enough benefits to outweigh the negatives, like cost, invasion of privacy, and its snowball effect. Also, the people that you would like to have them, often times drive old crappy cars that wouldn't have them anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.