Wait....this makes no sense

[TravisS]

I dunno, it would make sense to me that gas prices go up, save that gas and get a manual trans. But I think what Americans dont realize is that gas prices will never be cheap again. This isnt like the shortages of the 70s where prices eventually went back down to nothing compared to today.

 

I don't think most people realize a manual transmission can mean better gas mileage. I had an argument with my father in law about that, he kept claiming an automatic is better for gas mileage. I finally had to go online and show him that that simply isn't the case.

[IwannaSportSedan]

"The American Culture is not unsophisticated as a whole. It only tends to be tolerant of unsophisticates."

 

NASCAR is by far the biggest racing series in the US. I rest my case. Headlight decals? LMAO!

 

 

Yah. Headlight decals are pretty fakey. I generally don't watch nascar, due to the taxi-cab oval track format, and the soap-operatic antics.

 

But that is just it. Nascar may be the biggest, but NOT all 300 million people watch nascar. There are others.

 

Believe it, other countries have their cheap pleasures too, all over the world. Americans are not *that* unique. Human nature is what it is.

 

In other places, the "unsophisticates" aren't paraded on television like they are in the american media, such as Nascar coverage, and Paris Hilton situation comedies. The whole country is not reflected in that.

 

American circumstances (good standard of living, and a large geographical area) are different, and our car buying habits reflect it, some of which is not true, or at least not the same in other industrialized countries, and certainly not in third world or developing countries. Availability, ability to afford, and usability convenience of automatic transmissions are a big sellers to a population that collectively spends a significant amount of time in cars, and can afford cars that are more convenient and easy to drive. It is like water tending to find it's level.

 

There are those of us, albeit an admitted minority, who do prefer control, precision, and performance take higher priority than ease of use, and automotive equivalent to plug and play, turn the key and go, with minimal shifting. We shouldn't be ignored, but they don't necessarily deserve ire just for being the majority.

 

What happened to the tolerance? I thought people were supposed to be ultra-tolerant... instead I hear denegration and pretensiousness from Americans to their fellow Americans who have different tastes. Is that not the opposite of tolerance?

 

America is a great country, and there is no other country that is more free for people to do what they want with their lives.

 

Denegrating people who aren't like you isn't really necessary to make the point that people like you aren't being served in the marketplace with products you would prefer, in this case, a manual transmission in a specific car from Subaru.

 

I would tend to agree with your point about lack of manual transmissions, the oddity of NASCAR, and probably other things, but I would refrain from the denegration of American Culture, despite your and my own concerns about it.

 

That sort of elitism of "My ideals are higher, and therefore MORE VALID than someone else's, just by virtue of me liking my own ideals more." leads to biases, then to restrictions (the road to hell starts with a sign reading "They should make a law..."), and eventually tyranny, as people decide that they themselves, or at least some government entity to enforce those ideals. There goes freedom.

 

People are free to be all sorts of imperfect. When perfection is enforced, it has to be defined by someone. Chances are, that isn't you!

 

All this to a summary: Just because someone has different taste than you, does not make them necessarily worse, nor does it mean they should be "changed". That applies to groups of people, too.

[t0ad]

I don't think most people realize a manual transmission can mean better gas mileage. I had an argument with my father in law about that, he kept claiming an automatic is better for gas mileage. I finally had to go online and show him that that simply isn't the case.

 

It's true, but I think this will change in the near future as components are getting more and more efficient. Mercedes has a 7-speed auto now.. and I think Lexus is going to release an 8-speed auto next year

[SLegacy99]

I don't think most people realize a manual transmission can mean better gas mileage. I had an argument with my father in law about that, he kept claiming an automatic is better for gas mileage. I finally had to go online and show him that that simply isn't the case.

 

Oh I hate people like that. And then you show them the facts and they still dont believe you because they want to be right.

[TravisS]

Oh I hate people like that. And then you show them the facts and they still dont believe you because they want to be right.

 

Well, he can admin when he's wrong. He's not a car person so I can't blame him, but he'd pwn me with electronics and wood work so it's all fair. I help with computers and car stuff, and he helps with house work

[stanjk3]

Mercedes has a 7-speed auto now.. and I think Lexus is going to release an 8-speed auto next year

F1 cars only have 7 gears, what street legal car could possibly need 8!!!???

 

If you think a 4AT is bad, I've had or driven cars with a 3-speed auto, most recent being a '94 Neon.

 

Hopefully 5-speed autos will trickle down to base models, instead of only the higher end Subies having them.

[Vimy101]

But that is just it. Nascar may be the biggest, but NOT all 300 million people watch nascar. There are others.

 

All the "others" probably don't come close to what NASCAR pulls in which is why some politicians go to their events to glad hand their base and kiss babies.

 

What happened to the tolerance? I thought people were supposed to be ultra-tolerant... instead I hear denegration and pretensiousness from Americans to their fellow Americans who have different tastes. Is that not the opposite of tolerance?

 

It is ignorance that breeds intolerance. In what region is NASCAR biggest? What region is most infamous for its intolerance? Which region consistantly scores the worst in education? I realize that I am painting in broad strokes but certain facts cannot be denied.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Ignorance breeds intolerance?

 

Yet you seem to be the one most readily classifying people you don't know, based on stereotypes.

 

I am the first one to say that stereotypes are usually based in some truth, an ounce, or a pound... Like politicians stereotypically kissing babies. When do they miss an opportunity to get up in front of anyone and glad-hand, in front of 10 people or 10 thousand? What does that prove?

 

I just am enjoying watching you classify and dress down people you don't agree with, and likely don't know, based on something as inconsequential as NASCAR.

 

And as my ON TOPIC bit, by the same token, you also seem to go the same direction and label people as "unsophisticated" who prefer to drive cars with automatic transmissions, regardless of their reasons, and you only seem to evaluate it based on your own viewpoint.

 

And despite your "facts", and inevitable exceptions to the following, there are good people throughout the south, as well as in the inner cities, rural midwest and west, apalacian regions, and just about everywhere else, despite your proclivity for citing simplistic generalities, and pessimism about wide arching groups of americans who are good, hard working, and free people.

 

Judging from your posts, and the subject matter, I would tend to guess that you lean toward the left politically. Ironically, the side of political discourse that claims to care for the people more than the more derided right. Yet, you seem to have little tolerance in your statements for those with different views or lifestyles than yourself.

 

And you continue to belabor your points, and it is amusing to me.

[SLegacy99]

 

Yet you seem to be the one most readily classifying people you don't know, based on stereotypes.

 

 

Well, not to pick a fight (which has been happening way too much lately) but I what vinny pointed out is more fact today than it was 10 years ago. Not so much stereotypes.

 

My 2 cents, Talladega Nights was totally worth the 7 bucks

[IwannaSportSedan]

Oh, no doubt that NASCAR has gotten many more fans in ten years.

 

But this is false logic. "I think NASCAR is unsophisticated." "Lots of Americans like NASCAR." Ergo "Lots of Americans are Unsophisticated"... that kind of deductive reasoning gets people into trouble. What was it about ignorance and intolerance, again?

 

I am just a bit amazed that I am having to defend American society as a whole to a fellow american, who thinks Americans are a bunch of crude, crass, and generally sub-standard group of people, brought to the fore by a comment about automatic transmission marketshare, and lack of transmission choice on a model of the Legacy.

[TedNacious]

 

I am just a bit amazed that I am having to defend American society as a whole to a fellow american, who thinks Americans are a bunch of crude, crass, and generally sub-standard group of people, brought to the fore by a comment about automatic transmission marketshare.

 

+1420492509830683096802396333333332535

[Vimy101]

Ignorance breeds intolerance?

 

Yet you seem to be the one most readily classifying people you don't know, based on stereotypes..... <snip>

 

I am the first one to say that stereotypes are usually based in some truth, an ounce, or a pound... Like politicians stereotypically kissing babies.....<snip>

 

And despite your "facts", and inevitable exceptions to the following, there are good people throughout the south, as well as in the inner cities, rural midwest and west, apalacian regions, and just about everywhere else, despite your proclivity for citing simplistic generalities, and pessimism about wide arching groups of americans who are good, hard working, and free people.

 

Caught you arguing both sides of an issue again. A lecture about stereotyping being based on fact and then you procced to generalize. Pick a side and stick with it.

 

I say "America" is provincial and quite isolated using your own definition of stereotyping being based upon - as you put it - fact. One of the things that distinguish pro wrestling fans is their incredible ability to suspend belief. Which way do you think the majority of them vote?

 

Did you happen to read in my referenced post that I was painting in broad strokes? Are you familiar with the meaning of that metaphore?

 

Getting back to on topic, there are millions of people driving their AT cars putting on their makeup, drinking coffee, talking on the phone and eating McWhatever on their way to Walmart with an SUV load of snotty brats and it is all made possible by the AT. Talk about conspicous consumption. Scary.

 

BTW, I see that my facts about NASCAR's home base of support remained unchallenged. Sort of. Out with it, buddy. Quit beating about the bush.

[Vimy101]

Edit. Double post.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Yes, I am familiar with the metaphor. You admitted to painting with broad strokes. Fine. I disagree with your premise, and have no problem saying so.

 

I also said that stereotypes are usually based on some fact, but the rest of the argument is that a stereotype should not be held out as a generalization about a whole group of people, because stereotypes aren't always accurate. Not ALL people in a group, especially as wide as the whole of American Society, fit the bill.

 

What about the TENS to Hundreds of millions of people that drive automatic transmission equipped cars BILLIONS OF MILES a year, responsibly, and without incident? just because a few people are bad examples, that you cite, you throw out the whole group of automatic transmission drivers? A bad generalization. Several of them, actually.

 

What about people on this forum, who drive Legacy GTs with an automatic transmission option? Do they fit your generalized view of unsophisticated Americans, and the rest of the diatribe you spouted?

 

To say that bad examples exist because of the existence of the hydraulic automatic transmission is pure fallacy. Bad or irresponsible behavior may sometimes be enabled by not having to shift as much, but it is hardly the cause... irresponsible drivers exist due to failings of human nature (as does intolerance and ignorance) not due to technology.

 

And BTW, what are you getting at? Beating about what bush?

NASCAR has been growing in popularity in other areas outside the south faster than in the south.

State education quality has been dropping to appallingly low levels EVERYWHERE, not just the south.

Intolerance is hardly restricted to the south, either, and has been largely evaporating from mainstream culture all over the country.

Truely destructive racism, and other forms of drastic intolerance is largely erradicated from mainstream culture, and relegated to people who noticeably rebel against civility.

 

How is that for challenging your facts?

 

I don't see the need to allow such denegrating remarks go unchallenged. You are free to feel and say whatever you want. Don't expect me to give you a pass on it, or agree with you.

 

IF it were just one person spouting such nonsense, I would dismiss it. I am hearing this sort of junk all over, in public, and at work, and in the media, about how bad and destructive America and Americans are. It is blatantly wrong. America and Americans have done more faster for their fellow citizens and foreign countries than any other civilization in history.

 

It is bad enough to hear denegration from foreign countries who couldn't defend themselves if an agressor sneezed in their direction, but I am very sick of hearing AMERICANS denegrate their fellow Americans in such a way as Vimy seems to. It is becoming an alarmingly loud chorus, despite being completely negative. America may not be perfect, and there are certainly Americans, including me, who are not perfect, but I am very tired of this rising drumbeat of generalized anti-americanism from within. If anything can destroy us, that is the only thing.

[Vimy101]

"I also said that stereotypes are usually based on some fact, but the rest of the argument is that a stereotype should not be held out as a generalization about a whole group of people, because stereotypes aren't always accurate."

 

Come on, buddy. That sentence is a pile of BS. You bring up stereotyping and then proceed to argue with yourself while I merely recite objective fact. You are revealing yourself to be subjective and emotional.

 

"Drastic intolerance"? Is that like being a little bit pregnant?

[IwannaSportSedan]

How about this. I'll try to speak in small words.

 

YOU fit a stereotype. From the posts you've made on the forum, you sound like a liberal. Not only this thread, but you treat the movie Syriana as actually relevant to real current events, as an example. That is fine. You can be a liberal, you are free to be one.

I'd say that stereotype probably works, because it is based on some facts about what liberals usually say, in common with what you say.

 

When you use a stereotype of NASCAR fans being unsophisticated, or automatic transmission drivers being inattentive and irresponsible, or any number of the generalizations you have made in this thread, you are making generalizations out of stereotypes.

 

The Generalizations are inaccurate, because not all NASCAR fans are unsophisticated, and not all (not even most) automatic transmission drivers are irrresponsible drivers. Most of all, most Americans are NOT unsophisticated.

 

That isn't both sides of one argument. that is two different arguments, one of which is false on it's face.

 

BTW, what objective fact have you recited? You have been spouting a lot of nonsense in this thread, but I have yet to see one reference to an objective fact, other than you not liking NASCAR, which is hardly a groundbreaking discovery.

 

I would say that lynching, terrorist acts, tyranny, genocide, and other violence for the sake of hatred is more 'drastic intolerance' than say calling someone you disagree with an inappropriate term or name. There are varying degrees of intolerance... unlike pregnancy.

 

And BTW, that isn't all that emotional or subjective of a distinction, is it? I can't believe I have to explain 'nuance' to a liberal...

 

Funny that you should bring up pregnancy, after asking me not to "beat about the bush." I am betting you are pro-choice, too, since the stereotypical liberal is... but I'll acknowledge that you might not be...

 

There must be some sort of "little bit pregnant" threshold enough for pro-choicers to justify ending life, after that point is passed, being sufficiently pregnant to actually deliver a human into the world... If life doesn't begin at conception, when does it begin?

Because before that point, an abortion advocate might think " a Little bit pregnant" is an actual state of being.

 

Personally, I think choosing to end the life of someone, born or unborn, for reasons other than ultimate self preservation should be some form of manslaughter or murder. But I am probably a stereotypical conservative that way... funny how those stereotypes tend to work on individuals, but less effectively with increasingly large groups of individuals...

[Vimy101]

"YOU fit a stereotype. From the posts you've made on the forum, you sound like a liberal."

 

There you go again. Stereotyping. According to you, stereotyping can be fact based but "generalizing" is not despite the fact that stereotyping is generalizing. Are you for it or agin it? Make up your mind and stop beating about the bush. Busch series. That's stock car ain't it?

 

BTW, I loaded up on Canadian oil sands stocks at the beginning of 2003 and now am the proud owner of a more fuel efficient (MT equipped) vehicle than I had before. Trying to help end the addiction as one empty vessel termed it. Lots of money to be made off oil. Even idiots know that.

[ElCoyote]

All the "others" probably don't come close to what NASCAR pulls in which is why some politicians go to their events to glad hand their base and kiss babies.

 

 

 

It is ignorance that breeds intolerance. In what region is NASCAR biggest? What region is most infamous for its intolerance? Which region consistantly scores the worst in education? I realize that I am painting in broad strokes but certain facts cannot be denied.

 

+1+1+1 The truth hurts for some holy rollers but facts are facts. Well, done son.

[SLegacy99]

Want me to be more American? You all suck. Now Im gonna go off, think about myself and how I can make more money and spend it.

[DukeTrout]

I'm with SLegacy99. I am equally offended by both of you and your intolerance with each other, not to mention the folks you have offended by extension in your attempts at one-upsmanship.

 

IWSS, I was nodding my head along with your points until you made it a personal farting match with VinY, and then you lost it. I hope this thread can get back to meaningful discourse, but if not, I hope an admin locks it.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I don't mean to sound as harsh as this probably will sound, but What exact intolerance was I exhibiting? Not giving anti-american rhetoric a pass? did I ever say Vimy had to change his opinions? No. I just say that they are insensitive, and uncalled for.

 

I simply suggested he not blast away at everyone else in america, likely including you, too, Duke.

 

I was going to drop this thread like a lead baloon, and still will after this post. I really didn't want to have to come back to this.

 

But it is pretty insane that I am being called intolerant, when I am arguing that people should NOT be lumped under "unsophisticated" and derogatory comments from another member. What exactly do people think "unsophisticated" really means? It is a candy-coated, rock-hard insult. Sure, I got a little heated. Sometimes arguments do.

 

Next time, I'll try to leave it alone, and Vimy's so-called "unsophisticated" can fend for themselves when people deride them. It is simpler than arguing.

 

Over, and definitely out. This DEFINITELY makes no sense. Less sense that leaving the manual transmission off of the Legacy 2.5i Limited. :shrug:

[DukeTrout]

IWSS - Like I said, I was agreeing with you until you started bashing "liberals", some of whom may even be respected members of this board, and somehow relating this thread to pro-choice and anti-abortion??? I somehow doubt choice of transmission is related to anything political, so why go there?

 

Please don't worry about protecting us from inanity; I think most of us were already ignoring it. It was only when this thread turned into a train wreck that I started paying attention at all.