Suspension gurus help me avoid a mutiny!

[Guest]

I'm going to be reworking my setup (again ) since it does sit too low in the rear. Over some backroads this weekend, the rear was hitting the bumpstops when pushing it over rough pavement. The car was empty but for the driver.

 

But you run some KYB shocks, not Bilsteins, right?

[PGT]

KYB and STi pinks, yes. Bilsteins and Spec B springs sat lower in the back as well, but the car was not lowered, so I had no issues.

[Xenonk]

First off, I generally like my Legacy quite a bit. It has tons of midrange power, is subtle and decently sized. It is not stock under the hood, but the suspension is bone stock except for Pirelli P-Nero Nero all season tires and the JDM sway bar. When I drive it by myself a lot, but whenever I have passengers I like it a lot less.

 

Here is the problem - the suspension is just too damn bouncy. It seems oversprung to me. Now I know all you real racers out there will cringe at that and complain that your 2" dropped coilovers are still to soft, but for the real world driving the car is just too bouncy. My family has flat out refused to use the car for any long trips, much preferring our Honda Odyssey minivan and I really can't blame them. My RX-7 will (literally) run circles around the Legacy, but its ride isn't narly as harsh, which is saying something.

 

I haven't seen anyone that offers softer springs.

 

Any ideas?

 

Ironically I didn't get an STi because I wanted a more comfortable car, but at least wtih an STi I could haves wapped in stock WRX springs and shocks.

 

 

If I can't sort this out, the car might have to disappear

 

 

You need better shocks, you are underdampened.. basically the shocks are not firm enough to control the oscillation effects of the spring.. you need more compression and rebound (more so on the compression as I can imagine). Also when you have passengers in the car, you are also preloading the springs, which will cause the car to bounce more if the shocks are not up to that task.

 

The GT is actually very easy riding in stock form, I dont know what the complaint could be from the bounciness of the car, but check your tire pressures too to give a better ride? I drive around many people and heck, even on my road trips, the most I had was 2 other people in the car, all my track tools and luggage, AND 3 other rims and tires in the car, which was probably tipping the entire scale at close to 4700 lbs. And I had Zeal Coilovers and they rode fine all the way from Maryland down to Florida and back. No complaints from anyone.

 

Maybe it's time to step up the game to something with a better valved shock. Im just suprised that your family thinks the car is too bouncy?

[Deer Killer]

Im just suprised that your family thinks the car is too bouncy?

Maybe thats code for "we wish your car rode more like a large boat"

[Xenonk]

^ then in that case:

 

Honda Oddessey = the Carnival Cruise ship

[rao]

^ then in that case:

 

Honda Oddessey = the Carnival Cruise ship

 

That's hysterical

 

Try this if you want to understand the problem. Have someone else drive the car on smooth roads and sit in the passenger seat. Lean back and put your head against the headrest and notice how your head moves all over the place, even on smooth roads. It's funny but some people, not the real races among us, find that uncomfortable. Try it for 10 hours and then see how committed your are.

 

The Honda doesn't handle as well as the Legacy, DUH!, but no one gets motion sickness in it and you can drive it for hours and still be comfortable.

[PGT]

A friend of mine's wife got carsick on a testdrive of an A4 with UltraSport pkg....she described it just like you stated Rob.

[Garandman]

^ then in that case:

 

Honda Oddessey = the Carnival Cruise ship

 

funny thing is, I know BMW drivers who say the same thing about your car - in fact, so did Car & Driver, sort of....

[GTCanada]

Hey, do you happen to have any pics of your wagon with JDM GTs with Pinks? I just put JDM GTs with JDM springs, and while it's a great imporvement over stock (floatiness and oscillation gone!), there is still too much body roll (and I have JDM GT rsb). I read people had problems with Bilstein and pinks on wagons sitting too low in the rear, especially if car was loaded.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have pics of JDM GT struts + pinks. But, on my car, the drop was as advertised and was 15mm all the way around. I recently did a road trip with a full car plus the rear packed with luggage and toys and, while it sat a bit low...I estimate another 15mm, it did not hit the bump stops on the highway. BTW, on USDM struts with pinks the drop was 30mm all the way around. This is not a well matched combination.

 

Some observations comparing JDM stock springs and Pinks...

- the Pinks give a subtle drop that gives a sporty look

- I haven't checked the actual spring rates but in everyday driving the Pinks are subjectively about 20% stiffer than stock. Stock JDM is surprising stiff.

- My main complaint is that the Pinks feel a bit jittery when cruising. When driving hard you don't notice it since you are concentrating on other things.

- body roll is reduced with the Pinks but not dramatically so.

 

One combination that might be interesting to try, just out of curiousity, is JDM strut and USDM springs. Might give the increased damping required and keep a softer ride. Or, it might suck.

[Guest]

Some observations comparing JDM stock springs and Pinks...

 

Hmmm, define jittery. Like nervous? Following road irregularites? Jumpy?

 

Also, I am bit surprised you said the body roll is not that much reduced. This is subjective I guess, but it looks like it is really hard to get the car glue flat to the road. Perhaps JDM SpecB Bilsteins + SpecB Pinks for ultimate suspension. Or coilovers...

[gfxdave99]

I R confused.. I have a stock suspension with 18's and Toyo and i think my car rides pretty decently.. i drove back from my friends house in proper posture with my head against the headrest and didnt feel like i was getting my head bounced around.

 

I know my friends 92x when he had the front sway bar installed his car rided a bit rougher.. you sure your sway doesnt have something to do with it?

[Zoombaru]

Try this if you want to understand the problem. Have someone else drive the car on smooth roads and sit in the passenger seat. Lean back and put your head against the headrest and notice how your head moves all over the place, even on smooth roads. It's funny but some people, not the real races among us, find that uncomfortable. Try it for 10 hours and then see how committed your are.

 

Had a similar experience this weekend. I sat in the back next to my daughter's carseat and spoonfed a lot of my snow cone to her while my wife drove. The roads here aren't glass, but we don't cross any frost heaves. It was very difficult to do because of the bouncing and pitching. In fact, that was the first time I've ridden in the backseat of my own car and I was shocked at how rough and bouncy it was/is back there. I want excellent handling, but I was so thrown by the ride that I began to worry about who all I'd had back there as passengers.

 

I'm on a totally stock suspension with Kuhmos on 18" Prodrive P1 rims.

 

I'm subscribing to this one, as I'm willing and eager to go with a recommended and tested setup.

[driggity]

Im just suprised that your family thinks the car is too bouncy?

 

I'm not. Over the "right" kind of roads the stock LGT can be quite bouncy. Stiff, no. Bouncy, yes.

[silverfool]

yeah, the headrest test was failed early in my car.

 

lemme make sure i get this right. the bulk of this is due to the struts? because than i may wait for coil replacements and go for struts first... poss only.

[GTCanada]

Hmmm, define jittery. Like nervous? Following road irregularites? Jumpy?

 

Also, I am bit surprised you said the body roll is not that much reduced. This is subjective I guess, but it looks like it is really hard to get the car glue flat to the road. Perhaps JDM SpecB Bilsteins + SpecB Pinks for ultimate suspension. Or coilovers...

 

Since the Pinks are somewhat stiffer, they tend to transmit smaller bumps / irregularities. Similar to if you put 40 psi in your tires. It makes the car feel less relaxed since you feel more of the road.

 

The SpecB set up will corner flatter but I doubt very much that it is liveable long term. My brother-in-law is over from Japan and he says it is common for cars to be driven 5000km or less per year so I suppose it doesn't matter much how stiff a car is since you are not in it much. Cusco front and rear sways might be a route to explore.

 

rao, even though it is a good sport set up, the stock JDM set up will not pass the headrest test . The stiffness takes away the float and low oscillation bounce but the stiffness also makes for an increase in HBPM (headrest bounces per minute).

[Guest]

Since the Pinks are somewhat stiffer, they tend to transmit smaller bumps / irregularities. Similar to if you put 40 psi in your tires. It makes the car feel less relaxed since you feel more of the road.

 

The SpecB set up will corner flatter but I doubt very much that it is liveable long term. My brother-in-law is over from Japan and he says it is common for cars to be driven 5000km or less per year so I suppose it doesn't matter much how stiff a car is since you are not in it much. Cusco front and rear sways might be a route to explore.

 

I don't mind more road feel at all. But yeah, I'll keep experimenting. I'll put Pinks all around first. Just bought SpecB wagon take-off springs at Yahoo auctions in Japan, so when I get them I'll try front Pinks + rear SpecB.

 

I am leery of Cusco and any other stiffer front bars due to possible damage to suspension bushing. Perhaps I should try just a stiffer rear bar than JDM. I don't mind more oversteer if that reduces body roll somewhat more.

[Xenonk]

That's hysterical

 

Try this if you want to understand the problem. Have someone else drive the car on smooth roads and sit in the passenger seat. Lean back and put your head against the headrest and notice how your head moves all over the place, even on smooth roads. It's funny but some people, not the real races among us, find that uncomfortable. Try it for 10 hours and then see how committed your are.

 

The Honda doesn't handle as well as the Legacy, DUH!, but no one gets motion sickness in it and you can drive it for hours and still be comfortable.

 

I have sat in the passenger seat and rear seat at long drives of my own car (hence the drive to Florida and back.. that's a good 28 hours of a roadtrip right there, and showing up to the Wicked Big Meet 06' from Maryland to Boston and back).. and our heads weren't bopping around as much as you think, in fact, it was very smooth for what it is.. it sure put a lot of the passengers to sleep in the process.. I am confident of drinking my coffee during the drive too. What you really need is a set of GOOD shocks that has the compression to handle the dips and a soft enough rebound that it doesnt feel like someone just gave you an uppercut.

 

I have put my GT through a lot of miles, and a lot of driving and through a lot of the common scenarios of long trips, short trips, autox, track, granny transportation, child transportation, etc. and I am confident that not all coilovers are harsh.. if anything, look for a well designed shock with a very good setup for compression and rebound for daily driving.. You just need to have that right balance. That's why I got what I got.. it passed the girlfriend test, the mom-and-dad test, the baby test, and even the grandparents test.. sure, the coilovers I have are a premium, but they are soooo worth it for what they have offered me. I really couldnt ask for anything more out of the Zeals.

[GTCanada]

The more I drive the stock JDM GT setup the more I like it. It is a fantastic sporty suspension for everyday use. It is amazing the difference between what Subaru chose for Japan and the North American market but, as we all know, the public perception of Subaru is very different in each market. Given the mechanical (suspension, twinscroll, ...) and comfort (MacIntosh stereo, ...) differences I can understand why the GT was voted car of the year in Japan and damned with faint praise, mostly for the suspension tuning, by mags in North America.

 

Tom

[Deer Killer]

The more I drive the stock JDM GT setup the more I like it. It is a fantastic sporty suspension for everyday use. It is amazing the difference between what Subaru chose for Japan and the North American market but, as we all know, the public perception of Subaru is very different in each market. Given the mechanical (suspension, twinscroll, ...) and comfort (MacIntosh stereo, ...) differences I can understand why the GT was voted car of the year in Japan and damned with faint praise, mostly for the suspension tuning, by mags in North America.

 

Tom

 

Just a testament to how much management can **** things up.. I bet all of those were squiggly lines on someone's powerpoint presentation.

[Guest]

Just a testament to how much management can **** things up.. I bet all of those were squiggly lines on someone's powerpoint presentation.

 

Yeah, I hate those brainless management and marketing monkeys. On the other hand, Bilsteins would raise the cost of LGT. LGT is much cheaper in the U.S. than anywhere else.

 

OTOH, I will not forgive them dumping manual transmisson on wagon, and cloth upholstery in LGT.

[GTCanada]

Not sure I buy the cost arguement, especially in Canada where we get hosed on price already, but I agree on the management.

BTW, coming from a WRX wagon with v7 STi suspension, I hated the stock GT suspension. Sloppy and, well, boring. That being said, the v7 suspension was about 20% too stiff. It made me feel like I had to drive hard all the time.

[Xenonk]

but those brainless managment monkeys are seeing a larger picture:

 

roads in Japan are different than the roads in America..

 

people in Japan are different than the people in America..

 

driving conditions in Japan are different than the conditions in America..

 

and finally..

 

Cost of living in Japan is different than the cost of living in America..

 

 

We could go on and on about it...

[Guest]

Yeah, we could go about it.

 

Point is - companies (and that applies to goverment as well) can create and influnce behavior and demand, instead of just catering to lowest common denominator.

 

This seems like a modus operandi in the U.S - cater to the mindless Joe's taste, instead of showing Joe that there are better ways.

 

Very sad.

[SubieRU]

I heard that when JDM Spec B suspension went through several revision (A to C or D) only the springs were revised, but the struts (Bilsteins) remained the same. Can someone confirn that? Also, will JDM GT springs fit JDM Spec B Rev A struts? I'm trying to find a good compromise, since I think that my combination of JDM Spec B Rev A struts and the Swifts is too harsh.

[Guest]

No struts/shocks were revised. If you check Opie part number post you will see diffrent part #s.