Future of Subaru

[SLegacy99]

Hybrid is for economy, a turbo hybrid makes no sense. Hybrids are not getting the fuel economy they are supposed too (although much better than a normal engine) so why further reduce the effects of the eco benifit of a hybrid with a Turbo?

 

Yea but it doesnt have to be about getting 60mpg and were still early in the technology anyway.

Since apparently the Subaru gets 42mpg and 260 hp would complain? Thats more power and double the gas mileage. So please Subaru, give it to me in an '08 Impreza.

 

Nothing against diesels Id just rather have the turbo hybrid engine.

[flyboy333]

Wait, I have an idea...TURBO DIESEL HYBRID! Enough torque to tow a small moon, and 60 mpg! w00t! We just need really tall gears...

[SLegacy99]

Wait, I have an idea...TURBO DIESEL HYBRID! Enough torque to tow a small moon, and 60 mpg! w00t! We just need really tall gears...

 

 

Haha, you should work for Subaru.

[tantal]

Hey Iwanna, that's not a sedan in your avatar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tantal]

john_knoxville, you're a prick.

 

(snip)

 

 

Ignore works great!

[tantal]

Wait, I have an idea...TURBO DIESEL HYBRID! Enough torque to tow a small moon, and 60 mpg! w00t! We just need really tall gears...

 

afaik, ALL diesels are turbodiesels.

[DukeTrout]

To all the "give me a performance Leggy" people, tell everyone you know to start buying them and SOA will listen. If wagon sales don't pick up then your only leggy wagon will be an OB... hell SOA has sold more Bajas than Leg wagons!! If you want it go and buy/lease what's out there now or we'll never get it.

 

BOY, not to pick on you as I think you're being up front about this, but how on earth can I "vote" (buy) for configurations that SOA doesn't offer? 5MT LGT Wagon? LGT 3.0? Blue with Black leather interior? Legacy STI?

 

That might just work - if Subaru offered a buy-back program that eliminates depreciation loss. Buy the LGT sedan in a color combo you don't like now, and trade it in with depreciation compensation in 2 years? Live with the automatic on a wagon now, and we'll give you depreciation credit in 3 years when we pull our heads out of our butts and offer a MT? I'm not going to hold my breath. Or my money.

[MtnSub]

What DukeTrout said 10X

[SubLo]

afaik, ALL diesels are turbodiesels.

 

Oh boy...

 

There are non-turbo VW Jettas, old Land Cruisers, Motor Homes, Ford pickups, and a host of others.

[tantal]

Without shoving your rudeness right back at you, all VW diesels are turbodiesels.

 

TDI

 

Ever thought what that stood for ?

 

Do a little homework:

 

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/

 

A synthetic oil discussion on some stupid truck forum:

 

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502080

 

And, of course, those VW's that dont have turbos:

 

http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,11708285-27286,00.html

 

Ignoring you, pinhead.

 

 

Oh boy...

 

There are non-turbo VW Jettas, old Land Cruisers, Motor Homes, Ford pickups, and a host of others.

[SubLo]

Without shoving your rudeness right back at you, all VW diesels are turbodiesels.

 

Ignoring you, pinhead.

 

First off, your post is childish and directly insulting. But I'm gonna let that go and talk to you as an adult which I'm not sure you are or aren't. I'm not rude. Lighten up. I never insulted you. I just said you were wrong. Your taking it as such is immature.

 

Before you type/post next time, and probably before you contradict folks in person for that matter, accept your ignorance in areas which you know not what you say, as most mature adults do. It's not being dumb. It's just not knowing. If you don't know something, don't like the answer, there are books to research, people who do know something about the topic to talk to, and lastly search engines.

 

And, of course, those VW's that dont have turbos:

http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,11708285-27286,00.html.

 

This statement that all VW diesels are turbo is plain wrong and your reference has little bearing on your retort. Why don't you do a search for "1.6L naturally aspirated VW" and then tell me they don't exist?

 

Three diesel engines were offered in the A2 Jetta: a 1.6 L naturally-aspirated diesel with 52 hp (39 kW), a 1.6 L 68 hp (51 kW) turbodiesel, and a 1.6 L ECOdiesel that was sold for two model years, 1991 and 1992. The ECOdiesel made 59 hp (43 kW) and 81 ft·lbf (109 N·m) of torque

 

Ford made several non-turbo Navistar diesels. The 6.9L and 7.3L IDI Naturally Aspirated Navistars are still in service in some places. Look it up.

 

Toyota normally aspirated diesels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser

 

TDI

 

Ever thought what that stood for ?

I'm well aware of what it stands for. I'm a 35 year old car nut and engineer. Do you know what NA stands for? NA=Naturally Aspirated. Do your homework next-time as well.

 

Ignore who you wish. Think before post.

 

Cheers.

 

 

edit 3:56pm: left out diesel reference in plain wrong statement.

[MtnSub]

Holly Cow, or Wholly Cow,

Can we say I think this is "the way" and avoid the BS dissing routine? The point of our "fun only" disucussion is the best option for a hot Legacy. Some comments consider the real world and some comments are just fantasy. That is why this forum is "fun only", not work. The people at SOA or SOJ are working and not paid for fun. They are paid for meeting business plan. We are just spending time for fun.

 

Does anybody think disel is the future wave for personal cars? BMW & MBENZ have publicly fallen on their sword for making a wrong diesel decision five years ago. Unless you have more $, more industry insight, and more marketing clout than BMW/BENZ, why fight the diesel battle unsless you are part of the fantasy crowd?

[tantal]

Holly Cow, or Wholly Cow,

Can we say I think this is "the way" and avoid the BS dissing routine? The point of our "fun only" disucussion is the best option for a hot Legacy. Some comments consider the real world and some comments are just fantasy. That is why this forum is "fun only", not work. The people at SOA or SOJ are working and not paid for fun. They are paid for meeting business plan. We are just spending time for fun.

 

Does anybody think disel is the future wave for personal cars? BMW & MBENZ have publicly fallen on their sword for making a wrong diesel decision five years ago. Unless you have more $, more industry insight, and more marketing clout than BMW/BENZ, why fight the diesel battle unsless you are part of the fantasy crowd?

 

I'm not sure I understand your comment about BMW and MB? Their diesels sell extremely well in europe; in fact, many say that the 3 series to have, in coupe, sedan, or touring form, is the 330D - check out the latest _CAR_ - they pose the question "Is this the end of the 330 gasoline engine?" in comparisons with the lovely diesel engine, in the end of the issue where they talk about their test cars. The only thing you give up is 0-62, but passing torque is incredible. Even the 320D gets excellent reviews.

 

Audi and VW diesels also do well. I know you're thinking about the US mainly, but these cars may disappear from the US market while still being produced for the rest of the world.

 

Personally I'd love a performance diesel - maybe an RX-8 diesel ! But we don't get sportiness offered with our diesels.

[john_knoxville]

First off, your post is childish and directly insulting. But I'm gonna let that go and talk to you as an adult which I'm not sure you are or aren't. I'm not rude. Lighten up. I never insulted you. I just said you were wrong. Your taking it as such is immature.

 

Before you type/post next time, and probably before you contradict folks in person for that matter, accept your ignorance in areas which you know not what you say, as most mature adults do. It's not being dumb. It's just not knowing. If you don't know something, don't like the answer, there are books to research, people who do know something about the topic to talk to, and lastly search engines.

 

This statement that all VW diesels are turbo is plain wrong and your reference has little bearing on your retort. Why don't you do a search for "1.6L naturally aspirated VW" and then tell me they don't exist?

 

 

Ford made several non-turbo Navistar diesels. The 6.9L and 7.3L IDI Naturally Aspirated Navistars are still in service in some places. Look it up.

 

Toyota normally aspirated diesels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Land_Cruiser

 

TDI

 

I'm well aware of what it stands for. I'm a 35 year old car nut and engineer. Do you know what NA stands for? NA=Naturally Aspirated. Do your homework next-time as well.

 

Ignore who you wish. Think before post.

 

Cheers.

sublo, don't waste your time replying to tantal -- he was abused as a child

[speeding_gaijin]

diesels suck!

[SubLo]

diesels suck!

 

 

LOL. How about some qualifications to that statement? Eh, it's not your fault. Most of us Americans are conditioned to have reactions like that. Check out this Banks "Sucky Diesel" Sidewinder pickup:

http://www.bankspower.com/Sidewinder-images/sw-burns-corvette-images/SW-BurnCorv2-lg.wmv

 

Some leisure reading.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36784&highlight=diesel

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36005&highlight=diesel

 

[flyboy333]

What someone needs to do to settle this whole diesel thing is to visit a european forum about this... they know more, and have better diesels than us.

[suds2250]

Some other good news for subaru:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060622/BUSINESS/606220404

[MtnSub]

Tantal, I was speaking and living and experiencing cars in the context of USA. There are all sorts of cars in other places that are great, but not for me to enjoy. I know about the BMW 330TT with amazing torque and performance. BMW thought they would bring it to the states, but the USA keeps pushing out requirement for clean diesel.

 

Sorry for the following loose fact that I cannot directly quote, but one of the mainstream car magazines had an article about the head of BMW product development saying the Europeans bet on turbo diesel and Japan bet on hybrid. The guy was saying publicly that Japan made the better choice. That does not mean that a Turbo Diesel does not perform great or that it does not sell well in Europe where clean diesel fuel has been been the standard for several years, but it does mean that turbo diesel never got launched in USA and hybrid sales all go to the Japanese auto makers.

 

Again, this is a Subaru Legacy forum in the USA and that is the context of my comments.

[BOY]

BOY, not to pick on you as I think you're being up front about this, but how on earth can I "vote" (buy) for configurations that SOA doesn't offer? 5MT LGT Wagon? LGT 3.0? Blue with Black leather interior? Legacy STI?

 

That might just work - if Subaru offered a buy-back program that eliminates depreciation loss. Buy the LGT sedan in a color combo you don't like now, and trade it in with depreciation compensation in 2 years? Live with the automatic on a wagon now, and we'll give you depreciation credit in 3 years when we pull our heads out of our butts and offer a MT? I'm not going to hold my breath. Or my money.

 

Duke, no ofence taken. I'm in the "give me the Blitzen" wagon camp and getting frustrated in all the bitching and no one doing anything to change Subaru's mind. In business $$ talks, buy what's available and more will sure follow. Who knows, maybe SOA has a plan in the works for 08, maybe not. If people don't buy what's offered, what would SOA take the risk on a more expensive, more raw version of the above?

 

Oh, diesels do suck... they suck enough to alter the earths gravitational pull if you tune em right I'd be all over a TD scooby.

[tantal]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your reply. Interesting point below about japan vs europe solutions - I don't believe that hybrids are a better choice - the performance of diesels is excellent and you don't have to replace half your powertrain (referring to battery packs in hybrids) after 5 or 7 years, and you don't add lots of weight like in a hybrid.

 

It's true that we don't get access to good diesels here in the us - wish we would, but no doubt it's worth trotting out the old conspiracy theories about the hedgemony of US carmakers preventing the good diesels coming over.

 

Oh, well, at least we won't have to worry about the american car makers doing much of anything in 5 years or so as they may be close to extinction by then.

 

Tantal, I was speaking and living and experiencing cars in the context of USA. There are all sorts of cars in other places that are great, but not for me to enjoy. I know about the BMW 330TT with amazing torque and performance. BMW thought they would bring it to the states, but the USA keeps pushing out requirement for clean diesel.

 

Sorry for the following loose fact that I cannot directly quote, but one of the mainstream car magazines had an article about the head of BMW product development saying the Europeans bet on turbo diesel and Japan bet on hybrid. The guy was saying publicly that Japan made the better choice. That does not mean that a Turbo Diesel does not perform great or that it does not sell well in Europe where clean diesel fuel has been been the standard for several years, but it does mean that turbo diesel never got launched in USA and hybrid sales all go to the Japanese auto makers.

 

Again, this is a Subaru Legacy forum in the USA and that is the context of my comments.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Haven't I debunked this "buy disappointment now to get jealousy and or a depreciation hit later" theory already?

 

If SOA would advertize the Legacy and Legacy GT, they would sell them. They are good products. NOBODY, besides US, know that it exists, or anything about them.

 

There are a couple of people like me, who are still waiting for conditions to be right to buy, but most people here, the VAST majority... ALREADY HAVE BOUGHT THE PRODUCT. And all that has come out of SOA is LESS product variation, NOT MORE.

 

That increased restriction, and lack of options is not in ANY way helping the few of us here, like me, who still want to buy a Legacy, so SOA is shooting itself in the foot, the customers are not at fault, nor are consumers responsible for SOA's bad decision making.

 

That is a completely erroneous way to look at capitalism. Customers are not at fault for lack of demand. Demand for cars has increased as a fraction of total automotive sales, as SUVs and trucks have fallen off by about 25%. Total new car sales may be flat, but they haven't declined THAT much, so it goes to logic that cars other than trucks and SUVs have absorbed most of that demand.

 

The fact that Subaru can't sell the Legacy in this market is SUBARU's problem. You can't blame it on us. WE HERE ON THIS FORUM have probably collectively generated more Legacy-model unit sales than SOA's advertizing budget has.

 

You are preaching to the choir, BOY. We are the ones who ARE buying subarus. it is everyone ELSE who is not, because they have no idea, and SOA is not seemingly interested in telling anyone.

 

I don't mean to be overly harsh, but this mantra doesn't hold water very well, and if SOA does blame the market for lack of demand, as you suggest, then they'll NEVER rectify the situation, because they don't take responsibility for fixing it, by offering a better variation of their Legacy product, and advertize it to generate that demand.

 

Who is successful in business by saying "Oh... no one is buying my product. I guess I'll scale it back and ultimately give up."?

The successful ones say "How can I make my product better, or change it in some way to make it appealing." Then they figure it out and DO it. Even if that means spending money to make money.

 

Which of those sounds more like SOA concerning the Legacy model in the US market?

[PLTek]

we can talk about it till we are too old to drive:lol:

 

bottom line is that whoever at SOA or higher decides the US model line up each year, obviously doesnt listen to what people have to say. They just look at some reports, trends analysis, more reports, and more number crunching and then overload and bad decision.

 

strategy could be very simple: GIVE US THE SAME CARS THAT JAPAN GETS, EVEN IF IT MEANS A YEAR DELAY, INCLUDING ALL THE SPECIAL EDITIONS LIKE BLITZEN, S204, ETC.

 

I dont want to hear that they cant do more integrated bumpers etc, imprezas and foresters get them. Give us the nice radios, extra engine covers, aluminium control arms, twin scroll turbos, how about some friggin sti accessories? whats up with that?

 

I am sure that majority of people would be willing to pay that extra 1-3K and get what they really want.

 

Other than that, I am awaiting anxiously the 08 models for both Legacy and Impreza

 

Peace

 

PS

PLtek,llc

 

 

 

 

 

Haven't I debunked this "buy disappointment now to get jealousy and or a depreciation hit later" theory already?

 

If SOA would advertize the Legacy and Legacy GT, they would sell them. They are good products. NOBODY, besides US, know that it exists, or anything about them.

 

There are a couple of people like me, who are still waiting for conditions to be right to buy, but most people here, the VAST majority... ALREADY HAVE BOUGHT THE PRODUCT. And all that has come out of SOA is LESS product variation, NOT MORE.

 

That increased restriction, and lack of options is not in ANY way helping the few of us here, like me, who still want to buy a Legacy, so SOA is shooting itself in the foot, the customers are not at fault, nor are consumers responsible for SOA's bad decision making.

 

That is a completely erroneous way to look at capitalism. Customers are not at fault for lack of demand. Demand for cars has increased as a fraction of total automotive sales, as SUVs and trucks have fallen off by about 25%. Total new car sales may be flat, but they haven't declined THAT much, so it goes to logic that cars other than trucks and SUVs have absorbed most of that demand.

 

The fact that Subaru can't sell the Legacy in this market is SUBARU's problem. You can't blame it on us. WE HERE ON THIS FORUM have probably collectively generated more Legacy-model unit sales than SOA's advertizing budget has.

 

You are preaching to the choir, BOY. We are the ones who ARE buying subarus. it is everyone ELSE who is not, because they have no idea, and SOA is not seemingly interested in telling anyone.

 

I don't mean to be overly harsh, but this mantra doesn't hold water very well, and if SOA does blame the market for lack of demand, as you suggest, then they'll NEVER rectify the situation, because they don't take responsibility for fixing it, by offering a better variation of their Legacy product, and advertize it to generate that demand.

 

Who is successful in business by saying "Oh... no one is buying my product. I guess I'll scale it back and ultimately give up."?

The successful ones say "How can I make my product better, or change it in some way to make it appealing." Then they figure it out and DO it. Even if that means spending money to make money.

 

Which of those sounds more like SOA concerning the Legacy model in the US market?

[MilesA]

In business $$ talks, buy what's available and more will sure follow.

 

That's not the way it works. The manufacturer gets sales when he offers people what they want.

 

Subaru decided not to offer the 5-speed in the wagon after '05. I needed a car in early '06. I was fortunate enough to find a leftover '05 5-speed wagon. If I could not have found a 5-speed, I would not have bought a Subaru. Very simple.

 

What SOA is really saying is they don't think they can profitably sell to the niches. They want volume. That's a problem because much of their existing and potential customer base consists of niches.

[BOY]

To all the "give me a performance Leggy" people, tell everyone you know to start buying them and SOA will listen. If wagon sales don't pick up then your only leggy wagon will be an OB...

 

I'm not saying trade in your 5MT wagon for a 5AT-S 07, what I'm saying is spread the word, refer business to your local dealer and get people buying more leggies. I know very well how SOA's advertising is giving the short straw to the performance vehicles, hell, even the XT doesn't sell that hot. What sells for SOA is the lower end stuff, 2.5i/x versions of what we have. The performance niche is crazy about the product but the buying populous isn't buying what we want.