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2.5T GT vs. 3.0 "Spec B"


2.5GT or 3.0GT Spec B  

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  1. 1. 2.5GT or 3.0GT Spec B



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Let's say that this "performance" model for the US comes out in September and is like the 3.0 Spec B to be shown at Geneva next month. Let's [i]assume[/i] a flatter torque and more responsive engine even though peak torque is lower. I'll again repeat that I have it on good authority from somebody who's driven a 3.0 and 2.0T back to back and surprisingly found the 3.0 quicker at lower speeds. As I just wrote in the other thread, a 3.0 "Spec B" could be good to set the groundwork for a 3.0T STi model later on. We would need some hard numbers to find out which of the two engines are really faster in straight line (stock anyway). Would you still prefer a 2.5T for its ease of modification? Maybe a supercharger can be added on the 3.0 but at a higher cost. Is the discount of the GT better to add your own suspension and cheaper hp add ons? Kevin, I'm interested to see what you think since you don't plan on any modifications and would represent a well informed version of a typical buyer that wouldn't mod.
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The only way I think I would take the 3.0 is if there is tuning to bump it up to about 270hp. If a modest increase like that were to happen, I could justify getting it. Overall, I'd stick with the cheaper 2.5GT that can be bought stripped (who knows on a 3.0). Extra money can be spent on a decent suspension and full exhaust/ECU to really bump up the power.
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I just don't know. Of course I would take the spec-b with the 2.5T but I just don't know how I would like the H6.. I assumed it was a dog compared to the 2.5T. But the temptation of all the spec-b goodies might be overwhelming.. I JUST DON"T KNOW! :lol:
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If the 3L was supercharged and intercooled (not likely considering Subaru's committment to the other form of forced induction), I'dprobably be with the EZ30 model. But for tuning sake, 2.5L Turbo is the way to go for the hardcore enthusiasts and those who love boost. The wheels on that 3.0R Spec B didn't look bad though. :) Option of either would be real nice. Add the Spec B wheels to the option list, that makes 3 nice options. :)
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[quote name='SUBE555']If the 3L was supercharged and intercooled (not likely considering Subaru's committment to the other form of forced induction), I'dprobably be with the EZ30 model. But for tuning sake, 2.5L Turbo is the way to go for the hardcore enthusiasts and those who love boost.[/quote] That would be an STi version, though. Wasn't the B11S supposed to be supercharged in the sense of a blower? Or was supercharged used just to mean forced induction and was actually turbo? A centrifugal charger like Vortech or ProCharger would be good since they spool up like a turbo and don't cause monster torque down low where the problem for the tranny seems to be.
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Everything else being equal (which isn't the case, mind you), the 2.5 GT's fluid hoodscoop wins over the relatively generic and bland Spec B's scoopless hood. Here's an original statement: boy, I can't wait to test drive the GT! :lol: Regarding the power/torque curve assumption, even with such a hypothetical setting, I cannot say how much (if) better the 3.0 Spec B would be, compared to the 2.5 GT. Being an FXT owner, I find that the 2.5 L with the AVCS *and* extra-short gear ratios work wonders very early on in the powerband (turbo lag is almost non-existent, as opposed to the WRX, where not much happens below 3000 or so rpm), so, with the Leg GT's higher-boost turbo (13.5 psi vs. 11.6, IIRC), same AVCS, and similar gear ratios (albeit not as short as the FXT, as far as I remember), I expect the GT to have a very satisfying low-end torque/power delivery. Then things should only get even better as it gets boosted. :twisted: I will not mod the GT: the stock appears to deliver precisely what I want, in a most welcome and worry-free, warranty-covered manner :)
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[quote name='PPower']Let's say that this "performance" model for the US comes out in September and is like the 3.0 Spec B to be shown at Geneva next month. Let's [i]assume[/i] a flatter torque and more responsive engine even though peak torque is lower. I'll again repeat that I have it on good authority from somebody who's driven a 3.0 and 2.0T back to back and surprisingly found the 3.0 quicker at lower speeds. As I just wrote in the other thread, a 3.0 "Spec B" could be good to set the groundwork for a 3.0T STi model later on. We would need some hard numbers to find out which of the two engines are really faster in straight line (stock anyway). Would you still prefer a 2.5T for its ease of modification? Maybe a supercharger can be added on the 3.0 but at a higher cost. Is the discount of the GT better to add your own suspension and cheaper hp add ons? Kevin, I'm interested to see what you think since you don't plan on any modifications and would represent a well informed version of a typical buyer that wouldn't mod.[/quote] 2.5T all the way. Don't forget that the H6 will feel quicker than the 2.0T because off-boost, it's a 2-liter four-banger. The extra half-litre of displacement makes a significant difference, as we know with the 2.5-liter turbocharged Scoobies that we get over here. My guess, if we get a Spec B, will be that it is the H6/6-speed "flagship" car. They want to keep the GT as the "performance stripper," in the eventual scheme of the Legacy lineup. That whole torque advantage to the 2.5T is a problem for Subaru, I'd wager, one that they have reconciled themselves with by getting the H6 the same horsepower number as the 2.5T, knowing that most people look at HP, even if they should be looking at TQ. The latter is for everyday, while the former is for rare occasions, when you can use peak horsepower. Suspension mods are easy, if you are so inclined. Heck, Ebay Japan or Japanparts.com should turn up all kinds of suspension goodies for the Legacy that come from Fuji Heavy, so your dealer won't bat an eyelash. I confess, however, that the 18-inch wheel fascination boggles my mind, but I live in the potholed, frost-heaved Snow Belt. :lol: I think BBrown hit the nail on the head, actually. Kevin
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[url]http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?domain=evo&page=driven/driven_story.php?id=38227[/url] I don't know if you have come across this review before, but in the bottom paragraph of the 2nd page he mentions the ride in a spec B with Bilstein suspension being somewhat niggly - which I can second.
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The only Japan model-type suspensions I recall are the Bilstiens in the RX-7 R1(?) and Miata R versions in the early 90s. If you look around, they are almost impossible to find because they were absolutely too stiff for even the enthusiast rag reviewers. I've been trying to look around for a 94-95 (1.8L) Miata R and can't find any for sale of any year yet.
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I don't know guys. This goes along with what I envisioned Suby doing with the Legacy model line. I really don't see a 2.5T Sti Spec B coming stateside. I think there might be alot of hidden potential in the H6 but it might be a little costly to extract compared to the 2.5T. Im really curious to see how much more they refine the overall handling of the car and how it will feel with the 6 spd. Should be interesting....
"Gimme mines Balboa...Gimme mines".....Clubber Lang - Mr. T
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I personally wonder why they're even bothering with the H6... unless they think they *must* have a 6 for this segment. If it's turboed and puts out similar power... why bother with the 6? If the choice was limited to the N/A 4 and the N/A 6, well, duh, I'd go with the 6. But like Ridge says... it's going to be easier to extract extra power out of the 2.5T. That's the only one I'm interested in.
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[quote name='racerdave']I personally wonder why they're even bothering with the H6... unless they think they *must* have a 6 for this segment. If it's turboed and puts out similar power... why bother with the 6?[/quote] Because to a lot of people, mo cylinders equal mo better. There will be no dissuading those folks, either. A 6-cylinder engine is necessary to play in the segment that Subaru ultimately wants the Legacy to play in. "Never mind that torque thing. No, that other Legacy with the hood scoop isn't faster. You have more cylinders. Remember and believe that..." :lol: :lol: Kevin
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I think the H6 is a GREAT engine for a top of the line "Outback" or a highline version of the Legacy, but any future sport version needs to stick with the 2.5L H4 T IMO...I want the lowest weight possible up front in a sport version...just my 2 cents. 8)
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Kevin, I'm a little bit surprised. Since you speak so highly of having a good suspension to make up for power in aftermarket modifications, I would have thought you would feel the same way about stock as well. Also, I'm a little bit surprised at the torque comments. You mention peak horsepower, so do you also feel that peak torque is where it's at, or isn't it more appropriate to consider the area under the curve. Of course we won't know what that is for quite a while, so I guess we have to just make assumptions. I definitely agree that the extra weight of the 6 and the STi tranny are big no no's. Of course since EDM only gets a 3.0 automatic, they should be ecstatic to gain some pounds for the 6MT. The value of a 6MT can only be nit picked once the gear ratios are known. If it is close ratio like the STi, then it is worthless especially for an H6 NA engine. If it is one that starts the gears shorter and ends in a taller 6th gear for cruising, then I believe it can have merit. I just noticed that the H6 gets the 7000rpm redline that SUBE wants along with peak hp coming 600rpm higher. That doesn't really matter that much to me though. I would still prefer a 2.5T for cheap hp mods, but if I weren't inclined to look at aftermarket, there are some real advantages of giving up some peak torque and gaining a better suspension. If you're driving it in low rpm for daily driving, you're probably also spending a lot of time off boost, so the extra 0.5L would make a difference there as well. It may ultimately be down to how much weight gain it is.
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[quote name='PPower']Kevin, I'm a little bit surprised. Since you speak so highly of having a good suspension to make up for power in aftermarket modifications, I would have thought you would feel the same way about stock as well. Also, I'm a little bit surprised at the torque comments. You mention peak horsepower, so do you also feel that peak torque is where it's at, or isn't it more appropriate to consider the area under the curve. Of course we won't know what that is for quite a while, so I guess we have to just make assumptions. I definitely agree that the extra weight of the 6 and the STi tranny are big no no's. Of course since EDM only gets a 3.0 automatic, they should be ecstatic to gain some pounds for the 6MT. The value of a 6MT can only be nit picked once the gear ratios are known. If it is close ratio like the STi, then it is worthless especially for an H6 NA engine. If it is one that starts the gears shorter and ends in a taller 6th gear for cruising, then I believe it can have merit. I just noticed that the H6 gets the 7000rpm redline that SUBE wants along with peak hp coming 600rpm higher. That doesn't really matter that much to me though. I would still prefer a 2.5T for cheap hp mods, but if I weren't inclined to look at aftermarket, there are some real advantages of giving up some peak torque and gaining a better suspension. If you're driving it in low rpm for daily driving, you're probably also spending a lot of time off boost, so the extra 0.5L would make a difference there as well. It may ultimately be down to how much weight gain it is.[/quote] All good points. I think that the Spec B suspension (if it comes) will be too much for my old back. Don't forget that the GT should still be quite firm, if not racetrack-firm like the Spec B. I expect the Legacy GT will have a fine stock suspension that MIGHT need a rear sway bar, if that. If my experience with jiggling the base Outback suspension is any indication, we won't have to worry about the GT being tight enough. With a lateral shake, the OB's tires flexed, and minimally, the suspension. Fore and aft, pushing down on the bumper got some firm resistance, and it snapped right back. I was impressed, and that as a BASE car. Subaru always firms up the sporting models. Subarus are known for having flat torque curves. Even a relatively peaky car such as the WRX, once on boost, has a nice curve. It was funny to have RS people scoffing at the lag in the WRX, until some posted torque curves that showed the WRX making more torque at 2,500 rpm than the RS made, period. :lol: Horsepower is useful in situations that most motorists don't find themselves in. In city driving, you're using torque. The 2.5T's torque peak isn't much different, rpm-wise, from the H6 (IIRC), but there is a significant lb-ft difference. That difference is, for me, compelling. With my WRX, I have only used peak hp on the track. In everyday driving, by the time you get past 5,000 rpm, you're shifting in first and second. You can wind out third, but that's usually in a highway situation, and you're grabbing 5th by that point, to cruise. My usual merge is 1st to 6K, which has me at about 30 mph, 2nd to about 5,500, which has me approaching 60, 3rd up to about 70, then a quick 4/5 grab, settling in at about 75 or 80. My 6-speed comments (I realize this is still a beloved thing to many) concern having to choose between a 6-speed equipped H6 car and a 5-speed equipped 2.5T, only. I shan't be the one to reawaken the 5 vs. 6-speed debate, as I think it's a moot point, as is, frankly, an H6 Spec B for the USDM. Finally, a "better" suspension is relative. I went from Tein HA coilovers, with 450/375 spring rates, to DMS coilovers with 180/180 spring rates. Guess which car handled better, and had better ride quality? The softer car, indeed. Stiffness isn't always the way to go, though it might be on the track. On the streets, however, the Teins spent so much time losing contact with the pavement on rougher roads, that handling suffered. On those same roads, the DMS just floated, gripped and scooted. In later suspension experiements, I tried 225/180, 225/225 and 260/225 springs on the DMS coilovers. None had the best overall collection of attributes as the 180/180, which blended stiction and suppleness, qualities that are also present in the SPT suspension package on the WRX. The thing to be careful of is the presumption that the Spec B, with its super-stiff Bilsteins and 18-inch wheels will be "better" for an everyday driver. That might not in fact be the case, even if it was better on the track. Make sense? Kevin
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Kevin, I fully agree with you on this and why I’m a bit skeptical on full Spec B trim (which is handling mods fellas, so pretty much forget about upped H6 power.) I think the Spec B Bilstein suspension would probably be more comparable to an EVO or EVO RS in the U.S. and during back road driving where it gets bumpy, I’ve heard the EVO gets pretty scary while STi’s are still in the realm of handling. Additional to the bilsteins, the 18” wheels have even less rubber between the wheel itself and the pavement, creating less deflection and road bump absorption distance. That’s potentially an issue where most of these models would sell being the roads are far from racetrack smooth which creates a potential problem with wheel damage as well. Needless to say, Spec B sounded good at first when I heard about it first in Japan, but the more I look at it, it just doesn’t sound as optimal outside a near-constant racetrack setting which 99+% of Legacy owners will never see (except me and some others here of course. :D) Aside from the traditional Spec B package, the 5MT to 6MT is still an interesting debate, and probably more relevant with an H6 model over a turbo model IMHO. I think speaking constantly about ‘well from low rpms, the H6 will have a lot more torque’ and talk like this is really a moot point. Who’s driven an FXT lately, 5MT or 4EAT? I drove both last summer, and to be honest, it was pleasant in both, power was right there for passing, getting on the highway, around-town driving, the whole ball of wax. I should have driven an OB for comparison, but after driving that, I’m not sure it could even compare. I think either will work well, however, for saying a 5MT or 6MT will be better, I think Preston has it right, we’ll have to see what they come up with for ratios. But as of right now, I actually see a 5MT with slightly taller gears like the 2.5GT’s advantageous in a turbo application and a closer ratio 6MT in H6 models. Yes, that H6 will have some decent torque, but they appear to have tuned it for more hp, which helps sales like the old saying ‘hp sells cars, torque wins races.’ In Japan and other markets that don’t see quite as much hp are seeing more torque than the USDM IIRC. You can see where priorities lie, not that I blame them really. The people who are going to want to buy a car like this with more cylinders than a turbo-4 are also likely to want more gears. Any way you swing it, around-town drivability will still be better than a base 2.5L SOHC version, so bickering about 2.5T over H6- the turbo will suck for drivability is really a stupid comment. Both make more power than the base brethren. As for the whole Spec B model-performance package thing, I think everyone knows where I stand on this issue. Considering the huge amount of parts available in the STi parts bin internationally, why not make a nice package to improve upon the low points and further exploit the positive points. I don’t think it would be a huge cost, but make a noticeable difference. Things like Springs, SS Brake Lines, STi Brake Pads, SS Clutch Hose, STi Short-Throw Shift Assembly, and other things are easy to come by. These parts are made to do just what I described above, and they do it well. Look at the STi Suspension Package for the bug-eye WRX’s for example. The best part about a package: it could be available on any model and any trim further promoting their dedication to drivers cars and not alienating anyone by requiring them to get these features with a certain package like the Spec B would potentially discriminate here in America. You’d probably have to get leather and the whole ball of wax if you wanted a 3.0R Spec B, not the greatest idea in my book when you’re trying to open up to new markets. Options for customers can be a big thing if its done right. I think STi Springs, Larger Rear Sway Bar Short-Throw Shifter, STi Brake Pads, Stainless Brake Lines, Stainless Clutch Line, and upgraded tires to Pirelli PZero Nero M&S or Bridgestone Potenza RE950’s or similar for a grand total of $1000-1500 would be worth it hands down. I would love to see a Prodrive Performance Pack(s) from the factory w/ warranty as well that would be able to push close to the realm of the STi in terms of power with the feel and stealth of the Legacy. I think this is a potential un-tapped niche that may attract new buyers also. A lot of people are big time into warranties and being very tight on things like that turn off buyers. There are a couple of mfgs, most notably under Chrysler IIRC that are offering upgrade packs with warranties. Dinan, though a bit more upscale does this with BMW. It’s becoming more prevelant. Additionally, I’d also like to say that if they were to bring a 3.0R and think they should bring an MT model at sometime down the line, if developed and ready for production, it should be ready at introduction time. See if the part is desired for perhaps 2 model years, if it’s a success, great, you have more time to build with it, if not, cut your losses, but don’t sell yourself short off the bat with apprehensions as the early bird gets the worm. Just a couple of my ideas and my point of view.
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[quote name='SUBE555'] Needless to say, Spec B sounded good at first when I heard about it first in Japan, but the more I look at it, it just doesn’t sound as optimal outside a near-constant racetrack setting which 99+% of Legacy owners will never see (except me and some others here of course. :D)[/quote] That is the discussion than I and You-Know-Who engage in a lot towards the suspension setup of the Spec B. He's on the racetrack side of things, but I spend too much time away from a track to compromise the other 95% of my driving. Some things to point out is that going from a Spec B to a GT back-to-back, the GT felt a bit better to drive. Lighter, more positive feeling steering, a little bit better turn-in at lower speeds. And then going from Spec B to STi Legacy, the funny thing was - Subaru lightened up the feel of the STi Legacy as well. A bit more bump compliance from suspension and rubber choices. Cheers, Paul Hansen
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