subatwo Posted May 12, 2006 Share Posted May 12, 2006 Anyone know if it's possible to replace the stock Denso Flasher Module in our cars with an electronic or heavy duty one? I'm asking because I'm replacing my turn signals w/ LED's. I know people in here have talked about load resistors but I do not want to cut any wires. The flasher module route seems to be a much better one if it's possible. One of the members here took a pic of the flasher module and it doesn't look like any other flasher module you would see in a regular auto parts store. I get a bad feeling that this ain't as easy as I initially thought it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bun707 Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I sent a PM to user scottmcphee since he reworked the flasher for auto flashing with only a tap. I too would like to know if this is possible. I found some flashers on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-pin-Electronic-LED-Flasher-Blinker-Fix-Turn-Singal_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33713QQitemZ8073667581QQrdZ1 But it's a three prong version, If only a few of those prongs in the stock Denso flasher are used, we could probably rig up an adapter for it. As for the load resistors, you really don't need to cut any wires. You can get wire taps/splice taps which just splice into each line without soldering, cutting, or taping. If you haven't seen these here's a link: http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/451/451197.jpg Only thing I'd be worried about with the power resistors is them melting plastic, they can get hot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subatwo Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Thanks...yah, I looked at his thread with regards to that tap turn. At least now I know where the flasher is. But after seeing his pictures, I knew it wasn't the same as the electronic flashers on eBay. Funny, I bought LED's from that vendor in eBay and was looking into buying the flasher from them. Tell me how it goes w/ scottmcphee 'cause I think the flasher solution is more elegant than the resistor/wiretaps. I donno how I feel about the resistor getting hot too. Plus, don't you have to have one for each turn signal bulb you convert to LED? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bun707 Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Plus, don't you have to have one for each turn signal bulb you convert to LED? No, I don't think so. At least from other cars I've seen you only need one per side (left/right). But you'd have to adjust the resistance value to emulate the load of another bulb. Most peole recommend 6 ohms for one bulb and 3 ohms for two. Basic power formula: P = I * R^2 where I = V/R = 13.7V/3 ohms = 4.6A. Thus P = 4.6 * 3^2 = 41W. That's a lot of power to disipate. Probably best if you did spread it across two resistors per side to reduce heating. If you're looking for some check out this which is a 4 pack of 6 ohm 95W (overkill) resistors for $16 shipped: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7598668277&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Which kind of LED bulbs did you get? Mine are great for the blinkers, but not so great as the parking/brake lights. They are bright enough just as parking lights, but when you hit the brakes, they really don't get that much brighter, especially compared to stock incandecent bulbs. I discovered the 7443 bulbs will fit in and work in the 7440 (turn signal) spot. They look awesome there! Very bright and the instant on/off really gets your attention. Here's the ones I got (shipping rip off, but not bad total price): http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8069925052&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmcphee Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I have an idea, I will get back to you on this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subatwo Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Bun707. I got the 7443 15-led version w/ 9 forward facing and 6 around the edges. http://cgi.ebay.ca/7443-7440-Super-White-Hyper-Blue-RED-AMBER-15-LED-Bulb_W0QQitemZ9739491639QQcategoryZ20334QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem They're actually quite visible in all types of sunlight in my opinion. it's not as bright as the incandescent but plenty bright. I had to make sure they were visible in bright light because the last thing i want is someone hitting me cause they couldn't see my breaklights. Maybe you should try it out 'cause they're excellent brake lights, and i will never have to replace for awhile if ever. Plus i love that instant on/off Thanks for chiming in on this scottmcphee, though after looking at your tap turn thread, i donno if i'll have the electrical savvy to do whatever it is you might come up with. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 I sent a PM to user scottmcphee since he reworked the flasher for auto flashing with only a tap. I too would like to know if this is possible. I found some flashers on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/3-pin-Electronic-LED-Flasher-Blinker-Fix-Turn-Singal_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33713QQitemZ8073667581QQrdZ1 But it's a three prong version, If only a few of those prongs in the stock Denso flasher are used, we could probably rig up an adapter for it. As for the load resistors, you really don't need to cut any wires. You can get wire taps/splice taps which just splice into each line without soldering, cutting, or taping. If you haven't seen these here's a link: http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/451/451197.jpg Only thing I'd be worried about with the power resistors is them melting plastic, they can get hot! for the 3 prong flasher. u would need to of them and wire left and right independantly and who knows if u need to do the hazards also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 http://www.able2products.com/pdfs/11_1005stt_instructions.pdf check out this dealieo. i think it may work for me. and im getting bulbs from www.v-leds.com all these flashers are +12v switched where the legacy is ground switched into the flasher module and that gives 12v to the signals. the pdf i linked to provides an out put to a pair of led arays for brake light, tail light, left and right turn signal along with stobe patters. with the wagon i would only need the turnsignal inputs. the sedan would only need the same but could re wire their lights a tad to use both red lights in the rear for signaling stop and turn indications. i am looking into a basic flasher that can maybe tapin line of the power circuit so when u signal and the unit gets power it automaticly flashes. but i think the flashers im looking at when givin power will need the press of a button to activate the flashing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 http://www.soundoffinc.com/ http://www.soundoffinc.com/product_template.asp?product_id=25&cat_id=16 some more stuff but their info on wiring is kinda lacking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperhawkLGT Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Bump for interest, oh and why no pics, vids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 because nothing has been done. we are trying to figure out what to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperhawkLGT Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Ah Bun did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmcphee Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Well, I found out by trial (mistake) that replacing a seemingly useless metal "loop" in the module with a piece of copper wire causes rapid blink, indicative of a burned out bulb. This tells me that the loop is actually a very low value resistor that is used by the module to determine voltage drop, which is then compared to some known value for a healthy system. The MCU in denso decides to speed up the flash on the "burned out" side of the car if they're out of whack. By the thickness of the loop you can tell it is capable of passing as much current that would ever be needed and not heat up, so very high wattage. Configuring the car with LEDs drops the wattage requirement quite a bit.. and you might be able to replace this loop with a lower watt resistor, and not use loading resistors that just suck up current to mimic bulbs. We're changing the other half of the equation here. Top and bottom sides of the module are shown. Spot the metal loop beside the two relays. And the underside shows where the loop is soldered into the board. You can see a left path and a right path leading into the MCU for testing half the car at a time. I bet changing this loop or some related component/s on the denso module with different values could shift the reference point of what "normal" means to the MCU.. This would help the cause to use LED bulbs on the car. Since there's only one reference loop you'd have to be sure that both sides of the car are equally equipped with LEDs... and perhaps you'd have to commit to LEDs all around on the signals, and not mix some regular bulbs on the same circuit with LEDs.. but that would normally be what you'd do, right? I don't have a milliohm meter to test this loop by itself.. it's probably something like 0.01 ohm. But it would be interesting to measure the voltage drop across the loop in circuit then pull a bulb out on the car and remeasure the drop across the loop, then we'd know what we're working with as a starting point. You would want to use a real good meter on a very low / sensitive setting for this measurement and it would have to be fast and/or set to capture "max" or "min" reading because things are blinking here. Good night. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bun707 Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 Hey Scott... thanks for the reply. Looks like I might have to put my EE minor to work. I'll take a look into your suggestions and post any findings. As for pics and vids, well, I just popped them in for a trial a couple nights ago then took them out until I could resolve the flashing issue. I definitely am planning to take some pics and probably a video too. There are a million different types of LED replacement bulbs you can get, but I think the style I got seems like one of the best designs. Once I experiment, I'll get some pics up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subatwo Posted June 11, 2006 Author Share Posted June 11, 2006 I too must thank you for the leg work scott. I don't have a minor in EE, but I have some basic understanding of all of this stuff, looks like University actually came in useful. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaesx Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I have been looking and trying to figure out where the flasher module is located, but more importantly, so I could find out how my prongs our set up requires. Velocity LEDs on Ebay stores has the parts we need, I just need to know 2 or 3 prong. Here is a link for the modules http://www.stores.ebay.com/Velocity-LEDs_Electronic-Flashers_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQfsubZ784774QQftidZ2QQtZkm Gunner out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subatwo Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Look for the 'tap turn' thread it tells you where you can find it. This thread talks about ways to modify the existing one as our cars do not use the standard flashers that you have mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 we do not have a 2 or 3 prong flasher its actualy 8 prongs. you could get the replace ment relays to work with some wiring. and the oem one is to the right of the fuse pannel or maybe its 5 as in the picture. but it has 8 terminal locations and acording to the wiring diagram it has 8 wires going to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmcphee Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Easiest way to find the flasher is to hit the hazards switch and go digging for the ticking sound under the dash.. you know, the denso module could be replaced by something else... it's a pretty simple thing that has maybe been made too smart be aware the denso has a few purposes: left/right signaling, it also supplies 4-way hazard, and it supplies 4-way blinks for remote entry system (which just tugs on the hazard line very briefly to get 1 or 2 blinks out of the hazard logic). if you stare at the car schematics you see that the signal lever lines are just switches to ground. And the switch can safely handle at least the 10mA the denso puts through it. Hazard line is similar. So these are your inputs. And the outputs of the "new module" is to supply +12 pulses to the signal lights. Not much power is required to drive a whole car converted to LEDs so you can do away with bulky relays and drive these signals using solid state devices. The downside would be no classic signaling rhythm sounds, but you could add a sound maker of your choice. Anyway, a solid state signaler and LEDs means this whole circuit would never wear out, good for the life of the car and no bulb changes. That's worth something. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 well from what i ahve found most solid state flasher are power switched. are car is ground switched. ground it given to the flasher to signal power to the lights ok i jsut looked at 3 prong flashers and it should work. but we would need 1 for left one for right and one for hazard.... and a way to seperate the flash on ahzard from the regulare left and right signal. ie so when we signal left it doesnt crass through the hazard wiring and flash right also. so we would need diods. 2 diods, 3 flashers and who knows what else. its getting complicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmcphee Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 we would need 1 for left one for right and one for hazard.... what's needed is one pulser, with two outputs that are enabled by individual grounding. ground one = left LEDs blink, ground the other = right LEDs blink, and ground both (2 diodes to common point) and all LEDs blink maybe you buy just one solid state pulser, and split its output to two different paths that can ground enabled as described.. A circuit with a just a few components. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 my leds should be here soon. i can try to get some videos for every one. even though there is a video out there in the original led signal thread. i have shown where i got my bulbs in an earlyer post. when i get them i will install one side only and show the differences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 my leds came in today. and i installed them led's do not apear as bright as incadesent bulbs due to the fact that incadesent bulbs output light 360 degrees and use the reflector of the housing to aim the light all out the rear. riving the light output many times greater then the bulb alone. ill show a video in a few. how come the turn signals hyper flash yet the hazards flash normal speed even with all led's there has to be something with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meier motor sports Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 the video of my leds. not the best. but u can get a good comparison of led brightness vs the incadesent bulbs. pluse the responce time of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottmcphee Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 how come the turn signals hyper flash yet the hazards flash normal speed even with all led's there has to be something with that. The thing with this is... the denso chips simply ignores burned out bulbs when the hazard is pressed. It sets the pulse rate at a steady blink no matter how many bulbs are available. Maybe the thinking is after a crash, you're missing a bulb... and would be using hazards and that is not the time to be telling the driver he has a missing bulb. Trivia: the denso will go into hazard mode if you ground both the left and the right signal lines at the same time.. instead of the hazard line. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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