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Subaru announces 2007 spec.B


FameMax

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So, an engine that has 250lb feet of torque can life a 250lb weight at a distance of 1 foot from the crankshaft, no? If so, how can SAE change the way that is measured. 250lbs is 250 lbs, no? Has the measuring point changed?

 

Sorry for being such a n00b, I am no engineer here.

 

There's things like correction formula for local altitude, atmospheric conditions, temperature, etc. so that dyno figures in miami in summer can hopefully be reasonably compared to dyno figures form boulder in winter.

 

Then there's calibrating the actual dyno itself.

 

The new SAE standard has a new process to convert observed numbers to the baseline reference conditions so that you can do a better apples to apples comparison. It also changes the process for calibrating the machine I believe (they want money to get the full details, but they spec something about the dyno setup and it's different than before). It also mandates an independant observer to ensure the above are done correctly, and there is no dicking around.

 

So yeas, 250lbs hanging off a 12inch stick is 250 ft/lbs. However, a car is not a 12 inch stick with some weights hung off of it.

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I like the 06 color combo better than the new blah with blah and blue.

 

Interested to see if the 6 speed gives lower cruising RPMs and how hard the swap is as people start attempting to wedge this driveline into LGTs. Other than that, it just reaffirms the killer deal I got on my 06.

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I'm just curious as to what their thinking was with respect to the following:

 

They could not sell the 500 produced limited edition Spec B 2006, so they decide to make it a full production line and make what, 2000 units?

 

Personally, I think its nice, but since there are no price figures yet and with the price differential between the 2006 GT and Spec B, I don't think its nice enough for me to justify the probable price difference.

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wow. i may just have to change my mind in keeping my 05 LGT. of course, house comes first, then hubby's STI, then perhaps i can pick up the newer spec B. or wait to see on that hybrid... in the meantime, i may have to take a step back on my modding plans and just stay with what i have now. :D

 

6MT, adjustable throttle responses, XM/satellite/MP3 and Ipod playback on the original HU, fold down rear seats, etc etc... yep, i may have to go with this instead....

Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!!
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So, an engine that has 250lb feet of torque can life a 250lb weight at a distance of 1 foot from the crankshaft, no? If so, how can SAE change the way that is measured. 250lbs is 250 lbs, no? Has the measuring point changed?

Hello,

 

Quick comment: the difference is what accessories and exhaust and stuff are on the car. Some OEs dyno with the stock intake and exhaust and all the accessories, some do it with the intake but an open exhaust, and some do it without the accessories, or with only some of the accessories, etc.

 

The SAE suggested that everyone has to test with everything on the engine the way it's sold at the dealership - that is, with the intake, exhaust, alternator, power steering, etc etc etc., all full of fluids, plumbed to their accessories (ie, the power steering pump plumbed to the steering rack so the fluid can get pushed through its normal course, etc).

 

You can kind of tell what a company did before, based on how much their power dropped with the new "SAE Certified" testing standards. Subaru "only" lost a few HP in their ratings. Some companies lost a whole lot more.

 

Joel

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Hello,

 

Quick comment: the difference is what accessories and exhaust and stuff are on the car. Some OEs dyno with the stock intake and exhaust and all the accessories, some do it with the intake but an open exhaust, and some do it without the accessories, or with only some of the accessories, etc.

 

The SAE suggested that everyone has to test with everything on the engine the way it's sold at the dealership - that is, with the intake, exhaust, alternator, power steering, etc etc etc., all full of fluids, plumbed to their accessories (ie, the power steering pump plumbed to the steering rack so the fluid can get pushed through its normal course, etc).

 

You can kind of tell what a company did before, based on how much their power dropped with the new "SAE Certified" testing standards. Subaru "only" lost a few HP in their ratings. Some companies lost a whole lot more.

 

Joel

 

Actually, that isn't what the SAE did or why the numbers changed according to what I could dig up without breaking out the credit card when the change came along.

 

The changes you are talking about hit the industry back in the mid to late 70's. PReviously, there were no guidlines and a lot of lying both in the overrating and underrating of output. Then the SAE came out with specs and procedures. They had SAE gross horsepower, and SAE net horsepower. Gross ammounted to whatever the manufacturer wanted to do down to a stripped engine with nothing much left attached. Net was supposed to represent the horsepower as it would arrive at the dealer, with all accessories and such factored in.

 

I'm sure things were getting tested with all the bits attached. I'm also sure there were some games being played like leaving fluids out, or putting in something out of spec so the fluids had less drag than they normally would. I suspect the independant observer cut that stuff right out.

 

The vehicles that fluctuated by a couple percent likely just got impacted by the new formulas to correct to a common base and calibration.

 

If they were generating numbers with open intakes or exhaust or accessories off the car in a configuration that didn't match an actual trim level, they weren't sticking to the SAE procedures long before this current change.

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Hello,

 

Well, it's my understanding that J1349, enacted in 1971, did require testing with all accessories installed, however, the specific details were not as clear. In 2005, the SAE added J2723, which specifies the procedure for J1349 in order to 'eliminate some of the areas of flexibility in power measurement, and requires an independent observer present when engines are measured. The test is voluntary, but engines completing it can be advertised as "SAE-certified".'

 

One of the changes, according to C&D magazine (I have not seen the spec sheets myself), requires te power steering pump / system to be fully implemented during the test.

 

Another change is the 1% rule - the MFR's claim cannot be more than 1% different from the certifying witness' observation. IE, if the motor s/he saw tested made 290, then the MFR cannot claim more than 293. This 1% rule is new, so some automakers were more liberal before. Another thing the C&D article mentioned is that there is something about fuel quality requirements, as well, in the new certification process.

 

Joel

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This should help clear up how the new SAE measurements are different from the measurements in the past. This was taken from an editorial in the August '05 Motortrend:

 

THE SOCIETY of Automotive Engineers recently revised the rules for measuring horsepower and torque and introduced a new standard for certifying said numbers. It's been a quiet revolution, unlike the one in 1971 that made gross horsepower ratings (measured on a stark-naked engine) obsolete by introducing net ratings (testing an engine wearing its alternator, vital-fluid pumps, and intake and exhaust systems). There's no mathematical correlation between gross and net, but the original standard lowered ratings by roughly 20 percent, which provided welcome camouflage for power output ratings already in free-fall during those early dark days of emissions control.

 

This latest revision to J1349 won't uniformly cut everyone's engine ratings. In fact, the first engine certified to meet the revised standard--the Corvette Z06's LS7 V-8--got a five-horsepower increase to 505. The point of the revision is to account for new engine technologies and to reduce the opportunity for liberal interpretation.

 

GM's Dave Lancaster, who chaired the SAE committee that drafted the standards, claims that by taking advantage of the biggest loopholes it was possible to inflate SAE net results more than 15 percent (approaching gross output). Modern engine controllers didn't exist in the 1970s, so it wasn't specifically prohibited to run special spark and fuel curves during the test. Using the recommended fuel grade wasn't required, so by running premium in a regular engine with a souped-up spark map, several stray horses could be lassoed. Power-steering pumps could be left off, extra-deep oil pans that prevented windage losses were allowed, exhaust and intake restrictions were poorly defined, and correction factors for temperature, pressure, and even a transmission could be manipulated.

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Subaru's response to a previous poster here mentioned "reduced chances" of a Legacy STI... and that did sound like it *could* be longer term than just 2007.

...

I just wish Subaru would step up and compete with some of these more premium brands with the Legacy... and if it does in 2008, good, but why wait? to lose more money in the mean time?

...

Needless to say, if I were a product planner with the authority to do so, Subaru would be offering a LOT more variety in it's product lines, and would be telling people about it.

 

 

I sent a response back to Samir Hasan telling him I didn't think many Legacy GT owners would step down to an Impreza STI (as well as a few other things), and here is his response:

 

 

 

Thank you for your reply and for your candid comments. I agree that

the relationship between the Legacy GT and a Legacy STI would be similar

to BMW's 530i and M5. Since Subaru is a smaller car company, even our

high volume sellers are low volume sellers compared to the competition.

 

As a vehicle becomes more specializes its market shrinks. Including

Outback models, we sell about 7,000 units of Legacy vehicles a month.

About one-third of them are Legacy Sedans/Wagons. About a third of those

are GT models. Probably one out of eight, maybe less, are Spec B's.

If we added an STI to the mix, we would have to produce so few that it

would not only be cost-ineffective to Subaru, but nearly impossible for

a customer to find one.

 

The good news is that the performance sedan market is growing steadily,

and as it does, you can expect to see more new and improved offerings

from Subaru and other manufacturers. In some businesses, if you build

it, they (the customers) will come. In the car business, because so

much has to be invested to bring a new product to market, only if they

come can we build it.

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yes, join imba.org, aca.org, etc....wait six months....profit.

 

VIP = invoice. I did better negotiating on my own....$1000 better. :icon_bigg

 

VIP means you overpaid!! :lol:

 

 

VIP program guarantees you invoice plus any applicable rebates/financing that SOA is offering at the time. When I bought my car this would have been invoice-$1000, just like you paid. Fortunately, I got the Executive VIP pricing:

 

Executive VIP is invoice - set percentage plus any applicable rebates/financing that SOA is offering. All factory installed options get the invoice-percentage pricing as well. Heck, they even discount the maintenance/warranty/tire warranty packages for you as well. I think I wound up paying like 2000 under invoice for my GT Limited, though 1000 of that was the SOA rebate at the time. Still pretty happy with deal.

 

The only think that sucked was that the Spec B was excluded from this program, just like the STi was until recently. Now that the Spec B is a trim line offering, the VIP program should apply. Shame they won't release an EAT without the Nav (or the damn blue interior - WTF with dark grey?).

 

And no, you guys can't all go pester my aunt.

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Now that the Spec B is a trim line offering, the VIP program should apply. Shame they won't release an EAT without the Nav (or the damn blue interior - WTF with dark grey?).

Hello,

 

My sources say the Spec.B, coming out late June / early July, should be part of the VIP program, no problem. Meanwhile, my constant comment to Subaru has been the opposite of yours - 'shame they won't release an MT with NAV. It'll be nice to see them change their ways :p

 

Joel

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When Impreza production moves to the Indiana plant in 2008 the STi drivetrain will now be present at that facility where as now it is not.

 

So the posiblity for a STi Legacy would be a little bit more possible than now.

 

Now there would have been extra cost to ship the drivetrain from JDM for one year 2007.

 

Just a thought

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When Impreza production moves to the Indiana plant in 2008 the STi drivetrain will now be present at that facility where as now it is not.

 

So the posiblity for a STi Legacy would be a little bit more possible than now.

 

Now there would have been extra cost to ship the drivetrain from JDM for one year 2007.

 

Just a thought

 

The STI drivetrain being in Indiana won't make a bit of difference. Subaru has already announced that the 6-speed going into the Legacy is not identical to the I-STI 6-speed tranny. Also, the Legacy STI should be getting a turbo H6, not the H4 from the STI. The turbo H6 should be derived from the H6 that's currently in the Outback and Tribeca, which are already in Indiana. I see no impact on the possibility of the Legacy STI happening, positive or negative, regarding the Impreza production moving to Indiana.

 

Just my $.02

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I sent a response back to Samir Hasan telling him I didn't think many Legacy GT owners would step down to an Impreza STI (as well as a few other things), and here is his response in full:

 

 

Hello Mr. Timmer,

 

Thank you for your reply and for your candid comments.

 

Very refreshing response!! Thanks for posting it.

 

More candid than what I would expect.

 

I'm still a bit ticked that I can't get another Ltd wagon with the 5MT, nor an RBP car with the charcoal interior, but Subaru is a minor player and has to make hard $$$ decisions with their low sales.

Ron
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Very refreshing response!! Thanks for posting it.

 

More candid than what I would expect.

 

I'm still a bit ticked that I can't get another Ltd wagon with the 5MT, nor an RBP car with the charcoal interior, but Subaru is a minor player and has to make hard $$$ decisions with their low sales.

 

You're welcome. After posting it, I wondered if maybe I should have asked him for permission first. Too late now I suppose.

 

We just have to spread the word about how good Subarus are, and get more people to buy them, then Subaru will offer more options.

 

Just think, back in 2001, we had no turbo Subies in the US. Now we have the WRX, STI, STI Limited, Baja, Forester, Legacy GT, Legacy GT Spec B,...and OutBack XT (thanks Tommyh) with turbos, as well as the H6 in the Outback and Tribeca.

 

My point is that Subaru in the US has come a long way in the last five years. Just think what might be coming in the next five!

 

I can't wait to see what comes next!

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Not diggin' the blue seat thing at all. I only hope I can buy that radio on ebay once people pull them out for after market systems and it fits my 06. Mp3 and ipod connection would be nice. Other than that, I still wouldn't pay for the Spec B. Legacy Sti, that would be a different story. I think that's why they made the Sti limited, "less show" because people want a nice sleek look and some luxury with Sti Balls. Still, they haven't done it yet. Maybe some day.
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actually....i love it....already considering trading in and upgrading at the end of this summer....its the perfect platform to easily make your own legacy sti....the tranny swap would have costed too much but now we got our 6spd...but damn, for subaru enthusiasts, some of you guys are haters.
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actually....i love it....already considering trading in and upgrading at the end of this summer....its the perfect platform to easily make your own legacy sti....the tranny swap would have costed too much but now we got our 6spd...but damn, for subaru enthusiasts, some of you guys are haters.

 

Ha! Ever been married? :icon_twis

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