Subaru announces 2007 spec.B

[PGT]

In 1992 Subaru launched the SVX, a fine GT, which was competitive with models by Lexus, Nissan, BMW, and others, beautiful, quick, and a poor seller, all of because of Subaru of America's inept marketing. The marketing was so bad that a book was written about the failure. (Search the internet for the name of the book, which I read, but can't recall.) I loved my SVX LS-L. Since that debacle, SOA has been exceedingly cautious in offering cars that costly.

 

 

it wasn't a matter of cost as much as a soft suspension and automatic transmission prone to failure. At the time, SOA said that they weren't a large enough company to R&D a proper manual transmission, which would made it a more able competitor.

[scoobydude]

I could care less about this car, I wanna see them bring the Legacy STI here. Until then I will make no more Legacy purchases.

[rporter]

In 1992 Subaru launched the SVX, a fine GT, which was competitive with models by Lexus, Nissan, BMW, and others, beautiful, quick, and a poor seller, all of because of Subaru of America's inept marketing. The marketing was so bad that a book was written about the failure. .

 

This is my first Subaru, and I didn't get interested in them until the WRX era (this is as background).

 

Anyway, I don't care WHAT the marketing was on the SVX, IMHO it was one ugly SOB. It could have had 300 HP back then and it would not have interested me.

 

The reason I mention this is that the Subaru faithful (at the time) probably loved it, but that was a pretty small group back then, and the SVX was not the car to attract new owners.

 

Today, Subaru still has a certain reputation. Good or bad, they have a tough job in attracting new owners to get a reputation close to Honda-Toyota-Nissan. They have to be more targeted in their market offerings with their lower sales, and doing more performance options for cars like the LGT/Spec B is a losers game for them.

[IwannaSportSedan]

It would be nice if Subaru, and other companies would learn from their mistakes. but they don't seem to.

 

Honda Motorcycles are similar. they got burned by the old Hawk GT, that didn't sell because it was a better chassis with less motor for only 500$ less than the "sport bike" faired-in Hurricane CBR600. CBR sold, Hawk languished, even though it had much better parts (aluminum frame and first production aluminum single sided swingarm.) and pre-dated the Ducati Monster by 4 years, and the SV650 by about a decade. Now Ducati and Suzuki are eating honda's lunch in that market segment, and Honda refuses to release a new version, and continues the bad choice of offering the Honda Hornet 600 for WAY more money (more than $25% higher than FZ6 and SV650) than it's competitors, and then cancelling that, too, due to lack of sales, blaming the market for not supporting a flawed product plan. The hornet 600 is one of the highest rated bikes in Britain, and a really good bike, but no one paid the "extra" money for one. And Honda still feels burned, rather than having learned.

 

Subaru has a similar history with it's cars, and not learning some hard lessons, but rather playing it too safe afterward.

 

SVX was controversial looking (designed by Guigiaro in italy, not in-house subaru, BTW... I like parts, dislike others) and expensive, with AWD optional, otherwise a heavy FWD coupe, no manual transmission, and later problems with reliability (wheel bearings wearing, and other bits... nothing truly catastrophic, that I have heard.) but then priced it at ~35k. Expensive for what people knew as a Subaru. Like Phaeton being "too expensive" for VW. People have pre-conceived notions of what they think, and car companies can't expect them to reform overnight.

 

Then they came out with the GC 2.5RS coupe/sedan that people liked, but not turbocharged (which it begged for, and had in other markets as the WRX) The BD-series Legacy as well. Nice car, but no turbo, which could have really helped.

 

The WRX finally came out as a sedan in the next generation, (bugeye, which had it's detractors...) but still no WRX STI for another few years of enthusiasts begging.

 

Meanwhile the SUV craze is going on... And subaru finally decides to offer a 7 seat vehicle in 2006, to stop people reluctantly dropping Their used Outbacks for other manufacturer's larger SUVs...

 

Always late to the party with a 90% product. It is always a styling issue (SVX, Tribeca) or a missing feature. (such as a turbo or other performance option, previous Legacy, late arrival on WRX/STI)

 

even now, they limit the Legacy Spec B to a mandatory option list, and probably a mandatory single color combo, and wonder why the 06s sold slowly. (taking more than 6 months and big price reductions to sell 500 special edition units is "slowly".

 

Someone at SOA needs to loosen up their tie and their mentality. They are suffocating under a bit too little, too late.

 

If they were to attack the market decisively, with performance options/models from the outset, and offer options that make the product truly attractive for the price, at day one... I think they could do well. They do do well when they finally offer a 100% effort product, like when they finally DID start selling the WRX, then the STi in the United States. They were even surprised at how well they sold.

 

When Subaru is on form, they make great cars. The potential is there, and they nearly realize it with very good products, and they are improving in some areas. I for one, wish they would just push that final bit to make products that are truly great products that are unable to be ignored or passed over.

 

I agree that mainstream products are what they need, and the Outback seems to do well. The Tribeca is just too controversial looking. it can be stylish and attractive without being AS polarizing. The Legacy should be equipped as well as the Outback is (it is the SAME CAR) and promoted. (3.0R Legacy SHOULD BE their mainstream non-outback car.)

 

But an out-and-out stellar product in the form of a sport sedan (Legacy STI or truly well optioned Spec B) that CLOBBERS the competition will do more for media attention, and market awareness than the mainstream 2.5 GT has, or even if they did have a 3.0R Legacy. The 3.0R would sell itself on the lot, to people who don't want to worry about turbos, or who think 4-cylinders isn't what they want. Everybody else has 6-cylinder variants, except Legacy. And some buyers probably want a more premium offering than the 2.5i Limited, without the "Sport" of the GT or GT Spec B.

 

I Like the NZ offerings for the Legacy. GT is the Spec B specification, right out of the box. nothing less. The "Spec B" is the 3.0R Spec B, auto or 6MT, and the 2.0R for the economy-minded model. I can only imagine the US market with the 2.5i, 2.5GT (at 07 USDM Spec B specifications, 6MT/5EAT) and the 3.0R Spec B with the 6MT/5EAT choice, ALL in sedan or wagon body-style, NAV optional.

[rporter]

I give SOA more credit. They do understand their market, and the have to target their limited $$$ where they are most effective.

 

FWIW, I am still heavily involved with one of the Ford performance car lists, and similar comments come up regularly.

 

I don't see SOA doing anything like an STI LGT, they won't sell enough to justify the expense. Doing the Spec B as they have (with limited options/colors) keeps the expenses down.

 

Be happy that they even did it.

 

FWIW, with fold-down rear seats, i would consider a Spec B sedan. I would have bought an LGT sedan if they had those in '05.

 

I'm an old fart, and have had daily drivers and "play" cars over the year. A Subaru would always be a daily driver for me, and I won't get into heavy mods. I save those for my Play (2nd) cars.

 

I trust that folks on this list understand that they are not the core Subaru buyers, who aren't as interested in the performance.

[gt_ltd]

what doesn't SOA just import say 20 JDM spec.B's to test the demand?

[SubieDriver]

I just got a note back from Samir Hasan at Subaru, and his comments tie nicely into rporter's comments about Subaru targeting their limited $$$:

 

He described the thinking behind the SI-Drive system like this:

 

In Intelligent mode, the performance and economy are closer to the normally-aspirated H4.

 

In Sport mode, performance is tuned more like the normally-aspirated H6, with a broader, flatter torque curve.

 

In Sport # (Sport Sharp), it's tuned just like the current turbo H4.

 

So, we get three cars in one!

 

He also said that the rumor of Subaru boosting performance to offset the lower SAE numbers was not true. Subaru made absolutely NO CHANGES to any of the engines announced for 2007.

 

That just goes to show that Subaru was closer to the SAE standards than were other manufacturers.

 

Regards,

Tim

 

I give SOA more credit. They do understand their market, and the have to target their limited $$$ where they are most effective.

 

FWIW, I am still heavily involved with one of the Ford performance car lists, and similar comments come up regularly.

 

I don't see SOA doing anything like an STI LGT, they won't sell enough to justify the expense. Doing the Spec B as they have (with limited options/colors) keeps the expenses down.

 

Be happy that they even did it.

 

FWIW, with fold-down rear seats, i would consider a Spec B sedan. I would have bought an LGT sedan if they had those in '05.

 

I'm an old fart, and have had daily drivers and "play" cars over the year. A Subaru would always be a daily driver for me, and I won't get into eavy mods. I save those for my Play (2nd) cars.

 

I trust that folks on this list understand that they are not the core Subaru performance

[IwannaSportSedan]

I give SOA more credit. They do understand their market, and the have to target their limited $$$ where they are most effective.

 

I try to give them credit, but some decisions still boggle the mind, even with cost cutting in mind.

 

You hit the nail on the head about spending money where it nets the most effect...

However, how does one know if their money would be more effective if they spent it on offering something that they don't currently offer?

 

What if a good mainstream GT Coupe product would net subaru more sales and more profit than the Tribeca currently is? or putting the 3.0R in the Legacy would sell many more Legacys at minimal expense? Or that Spec Bs would sell more easily with a color choice and NAV optional... (just hypothetically... bear with me...)

How would they know that without trying it, or spending a ton of money on market research that could be inaccurate/narrow, and would cost a lot before it generates dollar 1 in revenue in a resultant product?

 

Not changing is easy, but it will kill a business. Changing is hard, costs money, but can pay off handsomely if done right.

 

I am glad they offer the spec B at all. and if they would simply slap some color on the sheetmetal, I'd probably try to buy one, now that it offers something more tangible for the price increase, namely the 6MT. If they don't add more color choices, I'll buy a LGT with the color that I like best out of their choices. Color (me liking the appearance of my new car) is more important than an extra gear in a nicer trans for extra money.

 

THAT part isn't very difficult at all, and I can't believe that they save THAT much money by limiting color to one, rather than the rest of the palette that the LGT otherwise has. I am not even asking for a "special color." which incidentally, they ARE doing, and Diamond Gray Metallic probably costs more due to that material not being sold in as much quantity as the rest of their bulk paint that gets used more often.

 

-------

EDIT: Sorry if I "stunned" the thread. I am done beating this dead horse for now... please feel free (as if you need my permission, which you don't...) to discuss the positive aspects of the new Spec B, and what it could mean for Legacy as a whole...

 

There are positives... 6MT, SI Drive, audio aux in, folding seats, memory seats, a decent looking new gauge cluster, which by some pictures still looks to be electro-luminescent (looks very dark when off, aside from the chromish rings...)

 

Maybe some other things like auto open on windows or the sunroof have arrived, or other fun things that didn't make a noteworthy appearance on the press release...

 

C'mon folks... keep the discussion going... I will try harder not to bludgeon it over details and business philosophy again...

[SubieDriver]

 

C'mon folks... keep the discussion going... I will try harder not to bludgeon it over details and business philosophy again...

 

Maybe my quoting information direct from Subaru served to kill the thread. It's hard to speculate about the facts I guess.

 

 

Anyway, the first thing that excited me about the '07 Spec B was the fact that it has the 6-speed tranny. I was dreaming about a Legacy STI (with 6-spd, of course), and the '06 Spec B left us all a little disappointed, seemingly not offering much beyond a standard GT.

 

Now the '07 Spec B is offering a whole lot more - most people's wishes have been fulfilled with things like the 6-spd, memory seats, Alcantara inserts, NAV, wheels, etc., etc.

 

It's funny how, even though we're getting 80% of the options we asked for, people still complain about the 20% we didn't get.

 

I'd say the '07 Spec B is a great advancedment beyond the '06 Spec B, which was already a step up from the GT.

 

The new Legacy was only released in '05, we got something new in '06, and we're getting something better for '07.

 

Quick timeline:

 

'04 - NO TURBO LEGACY GT

'05 - TURBO LEGACY GT

'06 - TURBO LEGACY GT Spec B (with some goodies added)

'07 - TURBO LEGACY GT Spec B (with 6-spd and lots of goodies added)

 

We've come a long way since '04

Just think, in '01 Subaru didn't have ANY turbo models here! Be thankful for what we now have, and keep buying them so Subaru will bring more!

 

I'd suggest that all those folks complaining might just wait and see what comes next.

 

Subaru is showing us they want to make us happy. Instead of griping about that 20% we didn't get, everyone should send a note to Subaru praising them for the 80% we ARE getting.

 

If anyone's not yet happy with what '07 offers, '08 promises to be even better. If you can't wait that long, buy something now, then trade up.

 

Just my $.02

[SubieDriver]

Oops, I meant to edit the previous post, and quoted it instead. Post deleted.

I corrected the "in '02 Subaru didn't have ANY turbo models here!" to reflect '01, since the WRX came in '02.

[gfxdave99]

Just think, in '02 Subaru didn't have ANY turbo models here! Be thankful for what we now have, and keep buying them so Subaru will bring more!

 

Well technically the bugeye wrx's started showing up around 01

 

I think the real beef here is that we know all the neat stuff that the JDM and other countries other then the US get and we dont get half of it here. I think thats the issue, its not that subaru isnt working on their engineering efforts, its just they arent making stuff that they have allready engineered and are ready to go here.

[planigan]

I think the real beef here is that we know all the neat stuff that the JDM and other countries other then the US get and we dont get half of it here. I think thats the issue, its not that subaru isnt working on their engineering efforts, its just they arent making stuff that they have allready engineered and are ready to go here.

 

That issue isn't specific to Subaru though... how long did it take Mitsubishi to send the Evo stateside? We never saw a Skyline over here (until the G35 showed up, but it's no GT-R!). Never saw a turbo Sylvia either (as far as I know the 240SX never got a SR20DET).

 

It's not limited to cars either... cell phones are a great example. Our "latest and greatest" are years old by Japanese standards.

 

what doesn't SOA just import say 20 JDM spec.B's to test the demand?

 

I believe the steering wheel is on the wrong side...

[SubieDriver]

I may have inadvertently injected my perspective into the information I received from Subaru.

 

I had said that Sport # would be similar to the current GT, but that's not exactly what Samir said.

 

I better quote him directly, so that I don't confuse the issue:

 

Intelligent is the economy mode. The fuel economy and engine

performance will be similar to that of a normally aspirated H4. In the Sport

mode, the performance and fuel economy will be similar to a normally

aspirated H6, with a linear powerband. In the Sport # mode, you get a

steeper powerband for more of a performance "rush" and maximum power. You end up with three engines in one. I can't think of a better solution

to the economy vs. smoothness vs. power conundrum.

 

Since he said that Sport was similar to the H6, I assumed that Sport # was similar to the current turbo H4, but he didn't quite say that.

 

He says steeper power band, and I assumed steeper than NA H6, but it could also be steeper than the current turbo H4 too. His statements were a little less definite than I made them out to be.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

[SubieDriver]

Yes, they do usually get the good Japanese stuff first. But then, we probably get many specialty items made here that don't get to Japan, right?

They probably complain about not being able to get things that we have too.

 

It just happens that we like the Japanese auto goodies better than the US goodies. Isn't that the way it always is? We want what we can't have.

 

That issue isn't specific to Subaru though... how long did it take Mitsubishi to send the Evo stateside? We never saw a Skyline over here (until the G35 showed up, but it's no GT-R!). Never saw a turbo Sylvia either (as far as I know the 240SX never got a SR20DET).

 

It's not limited to cars either... cell phones are a great example. Our "latest and greatest" are years old by Japanese standards.

 

 

 

I believe the steering wheel is on the wrong side...

[Tommyh]

Quick timeline:

 

'04 - NO TURBO LEGACY GT

'05 - TURBO LEGACY GT

'06 - TURBO LEGACY GT Spec B (with some goodies added)

'07 - TURBO LEGACY GT Spec B (with 6-spd and lots of goodies added)

 

We've come a long way since '04

If anyone's not yet happy with what '07 offers, '08 promises to be even better. If you can't wait that long, buy something now, then trade up.

 

Just my $.02

 

I like your comments and I really like the timeline that you set down a trump card in arguments. My one problem with every thing is the same one a "significant" number of others here have stated; that being the Wagon issue. I'm not going to post an "argument" here on that, there's all ready enouph threads on this.

[planigan]

Yes, they do usually get the good Japanese stuff first. But then, we probably get many specialty items made here that don't get to Japan, right?

They probably complain about not being able to get things that we have too.

 

It just happens that we like the Japanese auto goodies better than the US goodies. Isn't that the way it always is? We want what we can't have.

 

Indeed, the grass is always greener

[Tommyh]

what doesn't SOA just import say 20 JDM spec.B's to test the demand?

 

 

 

I believe the steering wheel is on the wrong side...

 

among many other things...

[SubieDriver]

I like your comments and I really like the timeline that you set down a trump card in arguments. My one problem with every thing is the same one a "significant" number of others here have stated; that being the Wagon issue. I'm not going to post an "argument" here on that, there's all ready enouph threads on this.

 

 

Thanks!

 

Regarding the wagons - if people buy the ones they're selling now, they'll bring more in the future. If they don't sell now, we won't get them in the future. It's all a matter of what will sell.

 

Another thing I just thought of: I remember hearing a bunch of complaints that we couldn't get NAV with a manual tranny. The '07 Spec B answers that too: 6-speed with NAV.

 

See, we are getting what we want, just not all at once.

 

If people buy wagons now, we'll get more wagon options next time. If they don't buy wagons now, it's hard for Subaru to justify giving us more wagons next year.

 

Sure, they should listen to what we want, but this chat board probably represents a small percentage of wagon buyers, and automakers do tend to cater to what the market demands. Our demands might just be getting lost in the larger demands of the non-enthusiast crowd.

[Tommyh]

Thanks!

 

Regarding the wagons - if people buy the ones they're selling now, they'll bring more in the future. If they don't sell now, we won't get them in the future. It's all a matter of what will sell.

 

Your welcome

 

Don't get me wronge, I understand the basic economics of it all, it's just sour grapes. I got my wagon, wouldn't trade it for the world...at this time, but there isn't any incentive for me to want to go out and do something as fiscally bad.

[gfxdave99]

It's not limited to cars either... cell phones are a great example. Our "latest and greatest" are years old by Japanese standards.

 

Well you can thank the red tape FCC certification process for that one..

[JohnG]

Definitely added some improvements, and certainly missed a few. IMO, the single best thing they could do is drop in the STi components. No additional R&D time or money required. Just take some proven, off-the-shelf components and create a true Spec B that stands apart not only from the other Legacy offerings, but also puts Subaru on a whole new level vs. other manufacturers. People would really start to notice Subaru. Probably wouldn't have to spend ANY money on advertising it.

On the plus side, I no longer have to worry that the '07 Spec B would make me want to trade up from my '06 Spec B..........

Maybe '08 will be the magic year.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Gov't, Gov't, Gov't.....

 

FCC, EPA, DOT, NHTSA.... always some g-man saying no to the people the gov't is supposed to serve.

 

And they charge us to do it, from every angle.

[KA81]

For example: In other parts of the world, they sell H6 Legacy wagons with a manual transmission. They also sell H6 Legacy sedans with the manual.

 

People like

 

 

 

i only read this part and wanted to point out that in those-parts of the world they would gladly give up their manual trans for an automatic

 

 

im sure they dont have an automatic trans available like us or very limited

[tintinet]

While automatic transmission is great for some (including those with physical impairments), I personally would never (at least in my current physical condition and frame of mind) want to own a vehicle with AT.

[BigT]

For the price of the Spec B it is absurd that there are no engine improvements! All that mark up for a suspension and transmission that can be gotten for half the price in aftermarket is ridiculous. Subaru better get its shit together and stop acting like a bunch of pousais if it plans on gaining any market share in the US. It put all that effort into redoing the legacy and look at how conservatively they packaged it. Crap suspension, no satelite radio, no HIDs, and a five speed. If they were going to make a truely competitive sports sedan they should have gone balls to the walls and made it packed with options, and gotten in some stupid action film with a rapper and Sylvester Stalone in it. They should have completely sold out and gotten moron celebrities like funk flex and paris hilton to do commercials. Then we could see then all over the place like these ugly ass new civics.