Legacy perspective (musings)

[gtguy]

When the WRX came out for, call it $25,000 dollars, people were lining up, getting on waiting lists to plunk down their money for that car. The stats, at 227hp-217lb-ft of torque, weren't what the other markets were getting, but the USDM quickly got over that, and people bought them in droves. So, let's look at the Legacy. If we presume Subaru's sticking to its 3% hike, the base GT will come in at under $27,000. For this, you get: Light years better interior Projector headlights Heated seats, mirrors Heated windshield wiper area Trip Computer More power (250hp-250lb-ft) Bigger brakes Standard 17-inch wheels Tire pressure monitoring system Leather option etc, etc. It seems to me that the modest price uptick over a WRX is more than justified with the new Legacy, making it even MORE of a performance bargain than the WRX, particularly when you consider the rather spartan qualities present in the WRX. I've been trying to put my finger on why I just can't fathom the grousing, and I think that's pretty much it. As I see it, the Legacy GT is one hell of a bargain, on paper even more so than the WRX. That's just my .02, that gives some perspective on why I am so excited about this car. Now that I have sat in one, and experienced the interior, etc first-hand, I'm even more excited. Kevin

[SUBE555]

The question then sits at, if the Legacy is so much better of a value than the Impreza WRX now, what will the next Impreza be like?

[PPower]

I still believe that the WRX is no longer the value it was first deemed. Laugh about the SRT-4 being fastAr, but it is really the bargain of the market. Now the Legacy is looking like a true value and will be able to maintain that position much better than the WRX IMHO.

[SUBE555]

The question remains, what direction will the next gen Impreza line take considering the new Legacy is such a good value? Will it become a bit smaller and sportier, or what?

[PPower]

Boy, you're trying to hijack Kevin's thread from the get go ain't ya? :p

[SUBE555]

Nope, just trying to state how great of a value the new LegGT really is that it should be kicking the WRX around like a soccer ball in terms of value. :P Just wondering a little where other models orbit around the Leg/OB lines. :D

[gtguy]

I think that the Legacy and Impreza will become even more different than they are now. When we left the Auto Show, after sitting in the Outback, and hopped into the WRX, you could really feel the econobox core of that car. The question is, does Subaru give the WRX a nicer environment, or do they leave things as they are? I admit to not caring one little bit, however. :lol: Kevin

[PPower]

If we're going to delve into what to do to the Impreza to differentiate it, I'll throw my opinion out there: If they leave things as they are as Kevin said, price needs to drop IMO. But then if left as it is, I don't think it will stay competitive against the improving quality of the Mazda3, Focus and others. The quality HAS to continually improve, and the question is how to keep it differentiated enough. IMO, the outside of the Impreza really grew over the GC cars which makes it look from the outside worth more money. There can be a psychological association with buyers of bigger physical size worth more money. Sports cars are an exception IMO. I'm a proponent of making the Impreza line more of a sporty car by making it more like a successor to the old XT with racier lines and using the B11S/RX8 rear doors. As a sporty car, it can have taut lines to show off the light weight. That way, pricing could be close, quality essentially the same, but be obviously smaller, lighter with more sporty, swooping lines. Off of this would be the B9 convertible type car and a wagon. Since the wagon would have the rear half doors, it would be similar to the Chevy Nomad in idea (2+2 w/ a backpack). With the size of the Impreza as it is now, it could easily have longer front doors and rear half doors as well. Essentially, those wanting something more sporty go for the Impreza/B9 and those needing a true 4 door/wagon get the Legacy/B4.

[gurpman]

I for one don't buy the 3% price hike for the GT. Maybe the base legacy will go up by 3%, but I find it hard to believe the turbo will cost us so little. I'd love to be wrong...

[SUBE555]

My guess on Leg pricing is a 3-5% raise. Remember, by saying 3-5%, we're comparing the current GT to the GT Limited, as the trim level is comparable. Expect the regular GT to be probably $1000 or so less, maybe $1500, who knows. The Legacy and Outback lines appear to be the benchmarks for Subaru. As long as the reviews are really good and they get plastered all over the place, I don’t see any issues here. Marketing in one way, shape, or form has always been the lacking area unfortunately. The Forester fits the bill for the mini-XUV quite well, with a good compromise between being too Americanized and too performance driven (the line stays ahead of the other mini-SUVs rather well IMO.) If the up and coming 7-pax XUV hits the value mark like the new Legacy and OB (if the pricing fits what I think it will) and has the desired features/options the USDM craves with a bit of performance without that ‘it’s too hard of a ride’ aspect (think the Cadillac SRX in overall concept but at less expense), I think they’ve got a home run, and they need it bad for the desired sales numbers. So lets see, we have a mini-XUV, large XUV, midsize car that has off-road capabilities, a midsize car with nice available performance. Then there is the Impreza, the model to complete the line. The entry model. Although I agree with you Preston on that the car needs to be sporty, I’m just not quite sure changing the model to that drastic of an extent is in the best interest. You can make it sporty without being a full-on 2+2 and many models have proved that. The desired market: $15-25k. The age group: 16-30. The Need:Desire fits perfectly in my book. Do you need performance or economy? A 30+mpg car or one with 2.5L turbo motor and a sporty suspension? I think that something between the size of the GC and GD is perfect, reduces weight, increases safety and economy (part of which is a more efficient profile), optimize interior space, and cater it towards the next generation buyer with features, or at least options the next generation of buyer desires in their vehicle like MP3 capable stereos with hookups for your portable MP3 player to name one. I could see this as staying with the sedan/wagon/coupe (as in the GM) or going with something a bit more VW Golf-ish. It’s a very open area at this point. The fact of the matter is, for the Subaru market, the younger generation now is totally different than 5-8 years ago, particularly with the technology of everyday life, and that really has to be taken into account. I also think this is the perfect line to start hybrids with. I know this may seem like we’re taking this thread off in a whole new direction, but I think Kevin’s statements about the new Legacy and Outback make this all the more relevant. Since the Legacy appears to really be making headroom and changing the Subaru landscape without changing the currency significantly, it cramps some areas and makes gaping holes in others. That’s why I see this as very important. I’m still dumbfounded at this ‘refreshening’ after just one model year, even if it is about 18 months real-time.

[EJ20H-TT]

An Sti version would be refreshing :)

[SUBE555]

A performance package to build on all the positive points and negate basically any negative point would suit me just as fine as an STi model considering the price tag of a potential performance pack would likely be a whole bunch less for only slightly less performance. ;)

[typej]

I went down to Subaru dealership for repair past couple of weeks and their show room was a fine example for every possible meaning of word "EMPTY" or "VACANT". Dictionary should be updated like this: Empty adj. emp·ti·er, emp·ti·est 1. Holding or containing nothing. 2. Mathematics. Having no elements or members; null: an empty set. 3. Having no occupants or inhabitants; vacant: an empty chair; empty desert. 4. Subaru showroom What I am trying to get at is that impreza, WRX, STI, Forester turbo, upcoming XUV and, of course, legacy/outback GT line up won't matter much if the subaru brand name is not widely recognized. Yeah you can argue great car will attract people to showroom. But go to Toyota dearship and see people buzzing around to buy the most blandest car. It is the brand that attracts people. If I was running subaru, I would spend lot of money for aggressive marketing/gimmicks to get some needed recognition. So people who are not car freak won't ask where I got the aftermarket emblem on my car ... (my emblem is stock of course....) :(

[typej]

and redesigning an emblem would be a start he he

[SUBE555]

The emblum itself I feel is fine, it is unique, it has meaning behind it, it works. Marketing and dealerships has long been discussed a serious low point, making Subaru virtually second rate in many markets which is a very unfortunate thing. They are working on changing this, but it's slow going.

[gtguy]

[quote name='gurpman']I for one don't buy the 3% price hike for the GT. Maybe the base legacy will go up by 3%, but I find it hard to believe the turbo will cost us so little. I'd love to be wrong...[/quote] A few things: I love that Subaru emblem. Whyever would you change that? Subaru dealers are empty because a) people don't shop for cars in the winter, for some unfathomable marketing reason, unless they live in a snowy area and suddenly decide they need a more snow-capable car; and b) Subaru's bread and butter car, the Outback/Legacy twins, are old and slow, which is why we're getting a fancy new one. :D My favorite Subaru dealer, in Evanston, is always busy, with Subarus sporting "DL" plates on test drives all over Evanston. I'm even starting to see Forester XTs out and about. I think it depends upon where you live. TypeJ, don't forget that Subaru only accounts for less than 1% of the worldwide auto marketplace. They really couldn't handle much more than that. Subaru is a small (okay, tiny) automaker, that must rely on things such as marketing via other routes: favorable reviews, for example (every publication in America reviewed the WRX, often more than once...ditto for the STi, and there were lots of XT reviews. With the Legacy being all new with a significant horsepower gain, bet that everybody and their mama will review that car.) Subaru seems to be headed toward becoming a boutique marque, that is, wanting to be perceived in a different way than the mass market. That is, IMHO, a good way for a small manufacturer to go. So you gradually take your cars upmarket in fit/finish/materials (and eventually, price...the Legacy is going to get more expensive over the years, gang...make no mistake about it), trying to carve out your own little niche. Yet, you have base cars to service marque loyalists, and economy cars (base Impreza) to rope them in early. I don't think that Subaru wants to be mass-market. Mass market is Toyota, but it's also Chevrolet, and Ford (okay, I DO want a GT...). Mass market means compromises to that mass market that Subaru shouldn't and can't make, really. A mass market car will NOT have a turbo. No way. It's the perception of turbocharged cars that lingers in the mind of the mass market. Never forget that Ford sells more yellow F-150s than Subaru sells cars, period. Subaru execs have said that the Legacy will increase in price by 3% at the most. Trust me, Subaru is as aware as any of us are of the value equation. That's why something spendy like HIDs are easy to delete, to bring the cost down. In every market except for one, the GT has shown right about a 3% hike over the original. In New Zealand, the price actually went down, one poster here was saying. But they get a Spec B as their default hot Legacy (and ain't THAT a big ol' party?). I think we'll see the Impreza get a lot nicer for its next go-round. It has to, for all the reasons enumerated here by others. As the competition gets better, you have to raise the bar, particularly since people have shown they are willing to drive a slower, but nicer car. Sube raises some interesting points about pricing. The 7-passenger Subaru will, without question, be the most expensive Scooby on the lot, almost of necessity. And, with the addition of that car, look at the lineup: Econo-car (Impreza) Bugdet performance (WRX) Family sedan/wagon (Legacy 2.5i) Sport sedan/wagon (Legacy GT) Outdoorsy wagon (Outback) Luxo-variants (GT Limited, LL Bean Outback) All-out performance (STi) Family/people hauler (7-passenger vehicle) That pretty much covers every base that an automaker needs to cover. I expect the 7-passenger to be something like the Pacifica, a tall crossover wagon, or the Toyota Highlander, rather than an all-out SUV. I just think that market is too crazy for a small automaker to play in, and market trends are beginning to argue against full-size SUVs. The recent introductions are a last gasp, I think. People are starting to figure it out. Note, that my list doesn't mention that coupe that Subaru has been showing around. A 2-seater would be a big mistake, IMHO. There are too many of them running around, and unless you offer something significant (crazy power for low money, etc), it can only spell doom. These next five years are going to be crucial for Subaru. Right now, they're coming off of a record sales year, and should improve upon that with the new Legacy. The Forester is going well, to boot. WRX sales are flat, as are STi sales, but that was to be expected. Trendy cars outlive their desirability rather quickly. There's always something "mo better" coming down the pike. But the way they treat their "long haul" cars, the Forester, Legacy and Outback, in addition to the 7-passenger ride, will be interesting. That's where you'll see the marketing plan play out. No offense to any WRX or Impreza drivers, but Subaru doesn't care a whole lot about those cars. They'll never sell enough of them to matter in a significant way. These next few years should be verrrry interesting. Kevin p.s. Yes it's long, but reading is good for you. :lol:

[AMT4SWA]

Subaru now needs a good Coupe! :)

[THAWA]

in otherwords bring back the svx platform, Also I love the emblem not to be an ass or anything but typej what woudl you suggest as a logo?

[PPower]

The logo can look great if they will make it look nicer as it looks like they are. In the pictures, it looks like the emblem on the steering wheel is more jewel looking. I know that on new Peugeot cars, the metal lion in the center of the steering wheel goes a long way to making a cheap interior look classy.

[SUBE555]

That's not a long read Kevin. You should have seen some of my older ones on NASIOC and the Cobb Forum perticularly describing some of the turbo system variations and product development threads. :D My two main areas of interest. I think we're on base with a lot of things, particularly the roadster being a bad idea. However, I do think a Coupe version of the Legacy could do well, particularly in value/performance over the caars in-class, those being the Accord Coupe and Solara to name a few. I also see it as a potential for drawing those interested in the RSX, Eclipse, 350Z/G35, Celica for various reasons, particularly if it tests well, and I see it better in a performance than nearly all those mentioned. I think the Impreza has always been more of a cult-ish car. That doesn't necessarily help sales. I think something more Mazda3 and Legacy-ish in a body between the GC and GD that is fairly lightweight, maximized in room, with class just below the Legacy will push the Impreza a bit more to the open market than just the cult status it holds now, something more universally accepted. I think it it sells well enough, the could make the WRX and STi versions a bit more agressive than the regular mainstream cars and really push that sport envelope. But Kevin is right, compared to the other lines, the Impreza is basically the bottom of the barrel whichever way you want to look at it. The Baja, I sure hope it doesn't live to see the new body style. It's giving them a limp from really moving forward if you ask me. It is drawing resources that could be better used elsewhere to push much more than twice the volume. Drop the Baja, give us a Legacy coupe. (I think I'll still get a GT Wagon regardless. :D) Marketing, dealership services/presentation, and naming stradegy are all as key or probably moreso than the models themselves. That entire segment of the buying-lifetime experience is a huge crutch slowing them down.

[THAWA]

I'll be honest, I'd like subaru to keep it's place as the car that noone really looks for performance or styling or anything like that. It's good to have a semi-unique car. It's fun not seeing everyother car on the road a subaru. Less ricers to make us look bad :D

[SUBE555]

I think by looking upmarket slightly, they will get away from a bit of the ricers looking for the sporty inexpensive and sort of look that way styling car and see a bit more of the well-informed, value with decent quality buyer. Any way you cut it, Subaru's won't be mainstream, just a bit more volume will help us get even better performance models. We don't win until Subaru does. Have to look at it from their side too.

[Ridgeracer]

gtguy and sube555.......I totally agree with you guys on all points. A coupe version of the 05 Leg would be perfect. Maybe bump the HP up a little to maybe 270-280 with a 6 spd. (optional)

[GBY]

I agree with 99% of what you're saying Kevin and it's true that Subaru might no longer care about the WRX, current model anyway but I do believe the WRX has done a lot of good for Subaru in the USA since it's introduction. The WRX still has a huge reputation even though other manufacturers have superceded it as far as outright performance is concerned. The Wagon is still the easy choice in its segment. Okay, I can see where you're coming from on the refinement issue, my biggest issue is the drivetrain whine but the car still has loads of character. The Legacy will be better in almost every way but the WRX has paved the way for Subaru in the US in a lot of ways.

[SUBE555]

Actually, Gumby, the RS paved the way. Hail to the GC/GM RS's! The WRX may have really showed them the interest has been there for a sporty all-weather machine, but with it's overall sales, it's a small par of the puzzle. There are a lot more angles to look at, particularly now. It will be rather insignificant soon.